Your Game / What Is A Sandbox? (Do you even want one?)
Consider that you were hired to design a MMO. Or, since we don’t want to worry about technicalities or 250-page design documents - consider you were friends with the Lead Designer of someone making a new MMO.
Being that this is likely a UO-centric crowd - Maybe it’s a skill based, sandboxy MMO much like UO. Why do you prefer skills over levels? What is it that makes a “sandbox” a sandbox, specifically?
And if you love UO, much of your passion is related to UO being your first MMO? Meaning, if you had your choice right now.. would you prefer to play a new game like UO, or a new game like EQ (or WoW)?
If your love of certain aspects of the game is directly related to nostalgia, factor this in. Really think about it. Were there things that you think are actually better about games like WoW? Are classes and levels simply more exciting than skills? Is collecting awesome loot more exciting than not? Do you consider collecting loot as a necessary part of playing an MMO? Would you be happy without being able to collect greens, blues, purples? Or if those items didn’t give you vertical power increases? Would you be able to get your girlfriend to play?
More importantly: Is the feature list to keep you happy with a game like UO really as simple as it seems, or is there something more complicated involved?
Consider, even, for a moment that I’m remaking IPY right now.
Would you play?
If not, why?
Is it because you’d rather play WoW (or a new game like WoW) - or is it because of something UO lacks, even though you consider it to have a great base for building upon.
If you’d prefer to play the WoW-type game, why? What features and systems intrigue you? What do you feel intrigues the masses?
If you’d choose to play IPY or the UO-style game, why?
If not, what needs to be added? What needs to be changed?
Maybe you know you’d play, but probably quit after six months. Why?
What would need to be done differently? What would need to be added to the game, specifically?
What features, or even services, do you consider most critical?
How would you prefer they be done?
I’m interested in seeing as many responses to this as possible. If you have some thoughts, put them down. I intend to read and reply to each while Azaroth.org readers figure out what their Perfect Game is.
-Az
July 20th, 2008 at 7:18 am
WoW was too restrictive and boring. I played it for about 70 days before realizing that the entire game is “go to the Cave of Destiny” and “kill 8 orcs” to recieve the “axe of fire”…
PvP in WoW is bland and predictable. The loot is boring and predictable.
I think what is needed in MMOs is some good old fashioned liberty/freedom.
There is actually a really good T2A shard around, http://www.uosecondage.com , it’s really accurate…
I’d play what you make though Az, and I’d be really good at it too.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:10 am
[quote]Why do you prefer skills over levels?[/quote]I don’t really. In the end it all comes down to numbers on the screen. In both UO and WoW you had to achieve 7xGM and level 70 respectively to compete competitively and participate in the “end-game.” I suppose skills feel a bit more natural and realistic, but that’s about it. Both give players the impression that they are progressing, which I think is the important thing.
[quote]What is it that makes a “sandbox” a sandbox, specifically?[/quote]A sandbox is where you can ignore game objectives… UO for me was the ultimate sandbox game, as its objectives were different for every person. There were no clear cut goals to achieve – you played the game how you wanted to. To me, sandbox basically means complete freedom, or “do whatever the fuck you want within our game.”
[quote]And if you love UO, much of your passion is related to UO being your first MMO? Meaning, if you had your choice right now.. would you prefer to play a new game like UO, or a new game like EQ (or WoW)?[/quote]That’s a bit of a trick question. I do have a soft spot for UO because it was my first MMO, but if I had never played an MMORPG and someone offered me a choice between those 3, I would have to say WoW. Why? Because it looks the best out of all of them, and has over 10 million subscribers world-wide. Looking back, playing UO and WoW for the first time were very enjoyable experiences, each for their own reasons.
[quote]If your love of certain aspects of the game is directly related to nostalgia, factor this in. Really think about it. Were there things that you think are actually better about games like WoW? Are classes and levels simply more exciting than skills? Is collecting awesome loot more exciting than not? Do you consider collecting loot as a necessary part of playing an MMO?[/quote]People are always going to look back at things through rose-colored glasses. Let’s be honest, WoW did a lot of things right. The levelling pace was good, certain quests and instances were fun and everything was polished, which went a long way seeing as a lot of their ideas weren’t ground-breaking. Again, I don’t really think classes/levels/skills matter. A good game is a good game, no matter which way it implements classes/levels/skills. Collecting awesome loot is good because it gives players a sense of achievement. It doesn’t have to be necessary, but unless you have other fun things to do or other avenues of progression, players are going to get bored, fast. I feel that WoW really overdid loot though… when I look at the mudflation in that game now, it’s astounding (I believe EQ is sort of in the same boat too).
[quote]Is the feature list to keep you happy with a game like UO really as simple as it seems, or is there something more complicated involved?[/quote]I think developers should keep it simple. If it works, then it works. 10 years ago UO’s feature list kept me hooked for years because at the time it was… revolutionary. Nowadays I don’t think it would suffice. With WoW, the bar has been raised, and players are expecting more and more quality content. UO had a really strong community, so even if the content wasn’t there players made their own fun (RE: game objectives, above). Plus there really wasn’t anything to rival it, except EQ, so players accepted that as “standard.”
[quote]Consider, even, for a moment that I’m remaking IPY right now.
Would you play?
If not, why?[/quote]Probably not. Let’s face it, UO is over a decade old. I’ve done anything and everything I’ve wanted to do (literally, as I’ve played around on my own shard just for fun). It might be nice to re-live some nostalgia for a few weeks though.
[quote]Is it because you’d rather play WoW (or a new game like WoW) - or is it because of something UO lacks, even though you consider it to have a great base for building upon.[/quote]I’d rather be playing a new game with new content and concepts to be honest. Something original. UO is lacking now, IMO, but that’s only because it’s over 10 years old and I know it back-to-front. Note that I’m completely disregarding any content added after Third Dawn…
[quote]If you’d prefer to play the WoW-type game, why? What features and systems intrigue you? What do you feel intrigues the masses?[/quote]I’d prefer to play something new ;) PvP interests me the most since it’s the most dynamic. You can do it over and over with different possible outcomes every time. I also love freedom and exploration in a game. What other systems were you referring to? I believe simplicity and accessibility intrigues the masses… look at WoW’s formula… take something simple that works, polish it and market to the people…
[quote]If you’d choose to play IPY or the UO-style game, why? If not, what needs to be added? What needs to be changed?[/quote]New content for players to explore… new lands, new weapons, new monsters, more story and lore. Events and characters that are dynamic. More ways to progress your character. More more more! Give MEANING to things, so that players become attached again.
[quote]Maybe you know you’d play, but probably quit after six months. Why?[/quote]See above.
[quote]What would need to be done differently?[/quote]See above/below.
[quote]What would need to be added to the game, specifically?[/quote]Let me elaborate on what I said above. New land for players to explore… add secret locations for players to share and discover. New weapons/armor is standard… new stuff to look at to keep players amused. New monsters for players to fear and conquer. Change things up, make the world dynamic. Things moving around, NPCs changing location, NPCs adapting and learning. Make it a living breathing world. Put lore in to explain things and intrigue players. Give players several avenues to advance their characters and that will keep them busy for a while (levels/skills, trades, weapon/armor upgrades, veteran rewards, exploration rewards, truly unique items, upgrading old items etc.) It really is difficult to be specific unless you have a concept in mind. The stuff I listed here is pretty much standard.
[quote]What features, or even services, do you consider most critical?[/quote]Customer service for one… actually, to be honest, I wouldn’t define any features or services as critical. Stray away from the pack… I’m sick of seeing cookie-cutter MMOs that are a poor man’s WoW. WoW set the standard, that doesn’t mean you HAVE to implement everything the same way. Be original. Remember that less is more (if implemented correctly).
The only thing I really want to see in MMOs now is POLISH. I don’t want to see shitty textures overlapping each other. I don’t want to see two-bit 3D models. I don’t want to see my character running around like he has broken arms and a stick up his ass. Let’s see some STYLE. Let’s see some MOOD. Let’s see some ART. I don’t want to see cruddy plastic environments.
[quote]How would you prefer they be done?[/quote]See above.
Well, that took me about 2 hours to get down in between fucking around with other things. Would like to elaborate a bit more on some points but don’t have time at the moment.
Let me know what you think Az. Hopefully that’ll give you some food for thought.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:21 am
Whoops.
Sorry the formatting came out a bit shithouse.
July 23rd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
But isn’t WoW “do whatever the fuck you want”? Aren’t skills just… a bunch of little individual levels? And dont’ skills lose the “freedom to choose” aspect more and more as well-meaning designers overcomplicate things and go off making “skill trees”, and such?
What makes the game.. “do whatever the fuck you want”? I can do whatever I want in WoW just as much as I can in UO. On a PvP server, anyway. Just not to another elf if I’m playing an elf, in player versus player terms.
Other than that, what?
What is it that UO does or has that WoW doesn’t that makes it so very different - so “sandbox”?
Is it the housing? Is that it?
Is making your “mark” on the world somehow, semi-permanently - is that “sandbox”? Is that what needs to be nailed down to move “sandbox” forward?
Making your mark certainly is one thing that WoW, EQ, etc does NOT have. When I do something in WoW, I’m a walking copy of everyone else that’s ever done that quest, instance, raid, or craft skill. Nothing differentiates me. Is this where the importance lies?
Is that big enough? Or is there just not enough there. Was the success of UO due to things you mention that are intangible and impossible to recapture - like the community, which was forged solely through a pioneer spirit and the game being such a melting pot.
New monsters, armour, and dungeons aren’t enough - or everyone who liked UO would still be resubscribing every time an expansion came out.
So what is it, exactly?
Is it REALLY as simple as a few simple design and ruleset decisions? The sum of the whole being (much) greater than the parts?
Is it more complex? Is it a minutely probable chaotic reaction of time, space, chance, and dumb luck?
Or is it none of the above? Maybe the secret to a sandbox has little to do with design - maybe it’s the answer to a simple equation of adding fun tools to a world and allowing players to write their own stories in its earth. Places and scenarios in which to use those tools, or what they’ve made with them - but never really locking them into a ride, or a set path.
Whatever it is that makes a good sandbox, it’s got me a bit confused. Especially about whether it’s profitable.
Do people even WANT one? Or are the only people interested the ex-UO veterans who are scattered across the internet and, frankly, mostly probably more interested in WoW than another game like UO.
Who knows.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
[…] should refer to my post “What’s a Sandbox? Do you really want one?”. Some of these issues are brought up, although I intend on doing a clearer and more poignant post […]
September 8th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
although in WoW you can technically do what you want, when you’re a newb on WoW things chase you from halfway across the map.
Theres no side games in WoW either, i know that theres crafting stuff and etc, but the hardest recipes usually require you to go on raids and alot of them are bop, so no profitability.
Some of the good things about uo is that because you are allowed to build a house usually there is a possiblity to create your own, tavern, town etc. and because all areas are basically dangerous besides town and because there is alot more landmass in uo and there is no specific starting place for charachters you can allow those places to be open pvp without worrying about having all high level charachters knowing what screen you’ll be on if youre way lower than them and thus making them restrict attacking in those areas. more after..
September 9th, 2008 at 2:02 am
Q: Why do you prefer skills over levels?
A: My knee-jerk reaction is that I prefer skills over levels; but this is probably irrational. Thinking about it seriously, I think kills versus levels may not be as much an issue as my gut tells me. Levels (or obtaining skill points) by doing quests and exploring the world certainly sounds much more entertaining than macroing skills to GM in your house for a few weeks.
Q: What is it that makes a “sandbox” a sandbox, specifically?
A: A sandbox an mmo world characterized by a lack of linearity in which the players have the freedom to take good or bad acts against the world around them, and enjoy (or suffer) the results of their actions.
Q: And if you love UO, much of your passion is related to UO being your first MMO? Meaning, if you had your choice right now.. would you prefer to play a new game like UO, or a new game like EQ (or WoW)?
A: UO was my first mmo, and I played it because I enjoyed Garriot’s Ultima games. If UO made a server with the rules and spell timers from 1998, I would play there; I played on IPY and UOG: Rebirth. Some graphics polish (but no major re-styling overhaul) and removal of tiles mechanic would be appreciated in a classic UO shard.
Q: If your love of certain aspects of the game is directly related to nostalgia, factor this in. Really think about it. Were there things that you think are actually better about games like WoW?
A: Yes. I think WoW’s quest system was an enormous leap over UO’s system of macroing up skills. I also think that challenging raid content was an exciting occupation for a lot of players; however, I would only be in favor of raiding activities that occur in a non-instanced world where they would be vulnerable to PKs. However, overall, I did prefer UO much more than WoW. From the most basic aspects such as the spellcasting/disruption system combined with the timing of equipping a halberd or bow, to the larger scheme of building a house or town and having vendors or runebooks that players frequent, the game was more fun than WoW.
Q: Are classes and levels simply more exciting than skills?
A: No. I disfavor classes and rock/paper/scissor PvP design. I favor a system where players can build (and re-build) their abilities and attributes in the fashion they wish. I also favor a system where those skills and attributes would be in some state of flux (no skill or stat locks in early UO) so that the character never becomes a “capped 7x GM with stats and skills locked”. I would prefer if there was a possibility of losing (or unexpectedly gaining) a skill or stat point (either through stat loss from dying, or other means), to keep the character more changeable and “alive”.
Q: Is collecting awesome loot more exciting than not?
A: Collecting good loot is fun, yes. However, loot should never be “insured”; it should be lootable by players and monsters.
Q: Do you consider collecting loot as a necessary part of playing an MMO?
A: Collecting resources and commodities like money, loot, regs, lumber, etc. seems like a necessary and fun part of mmorpgs.
Q: Would you be happy without being able to collect greens, blues, purples? Or if those items didn’t give you vertical power increases?
A: I’ll pass on all the epics and the associated gear grind. Whether the grind is Molten Core, Warsong Gulch, or Arenas, spending hundreds of hours for this year’s 20% upgrade over last year isn’t fun. I don’t play mmorpgs to keep up with the Joneses. When they added artifacts and item insurance to UO it changed the game for the worse in a big way.
Q: Would you be able to get your girlfriend to play?
A: No chance.
Q: More importantly: Is the feature list to keep you happy with a game like UO really as simple as it seems, or is there something more complicated involved?
A: UO’s feature list is fun, but the features tend to attract a rougher player community rather than a healthy one.
Q: Consider, even, for a moment that I’m remaking IPY right now. Would you play? If not, why?
A: Yes, I believe I would play.
Q: Is it because you’d rather play WoW (or a new game like WoW) - or is it because of something UO lacks, even though you consider it to have a great base for building upon.
A: I wouldn’t play WoW again. I would probably play a good classic UO server like IPY, but I do also have hopes for Darkfall.
Q: If you’d prefer to play the WoW-type game, why? What features and systems intrigue you?
A: I would not prefer to play a WoW game. The high points of WoW were the quest system, the raid/world boss content, and large scale battles like Alterac Valley. I dislike being forced into a preset class, the rock/paper/scissors PvP design, the instanced PvE and PvP, the forced factions and noncommunication between them, the emphasis on extremely powerful gear, the PvE and PvP grind, the lack of housing, and the lack of looting players in PvP.
Q: What do you feel intrigues the masses (about WoW)?
A: The majority of the masses are intrigued by exploring all of the fun quests, exploring raid content, the safety of knowing they will never lose any items or gear, the consensual-only PvP, instanced raid content for epic gear, and instanced PvP for epic gear.
Q: If you’d choose to play IPY or the UO-style game, why?
A: Because I enjoy a sandbox game, I enjoy the danger and interaction, and I would enjoy an (accurately reproduced) spellcasting & combo system of UO.
Q: If not, what needs to be added? What needs to be changed?
A: I think taking the UO idea to the next level, which is what they are trying to do with Darkfall.
Q: Maybe you know you’d play, but probably quit after six months. Why?
A: Because the playerbase may be characterized by a large number of hardasses and griefers, rather than a group of people who actually want to enjoy the game world and see the community grow with a balance.
Q: What would need to be done differently? What would need to be added to the game, specifically?
A: The million-dollar question? There may not be an answer. When UO was released, there weren’t really any other choices for an MMO, so it was a melting pot for all playstyles. I don’t know if there will ever be a large amount of interest from various playstyles in a Sandbox FFA PvP MMORPG ever again.
Q: What features, or even services, do you consider most critical? How would you prefer they be done?
A: Sandbox world with housing, fun timing and features on spells and weapon combinations, karma/reputation system to prevent 24/7 griefers.