Oh, you guys. Response to a reader.
In response to Mandrake’s last post in “Red Portals”:
You guys are crazy. Usually I get one or two old players in a post asking questions like these ones.
My response to this is too long to type out, so I’ll attempt to be concise without seeming like a jerk (very difficult, apparently).
First of all - Yes, WoW has a lot of problems. But I’m not entirely convinced that they’re all where people think they are.
You list a lot of things you can’t do in WoW that you’d otherwise do in UO. Fish, mine, craft, kill creatures. Etc. Wow incorporates most of these things.
You also list class imbalance. Well, UO employs an open skill system. The interesting point is that out of all of combinations, or “classes”, potentially created by this system - everyone choses one, or sometimes a second (dexer). That’s EXTREME imbalance. Similar to WoW having 150 classes, but everyone playing a Shadow Priest. All the time.
Grinding for items sucks, sure. But without items you’re locked into a deathmatch. Everyone wants even skills, everyone levels to 7x GM in the same skills. Equips the same weapons. Casts the same spells. The difference between this and a Quake III deathmatch is…? Well, you macroed a character. That’s about all.
You should refer to my post “What’s a Sandbox? Do you really want one?”. Some of these issues are brought up, although I intend on doing a clearer and more poignant post on this later. I do have intense interest in the subject and the honest response of players to any questions I might ask. It’s just unfortunate that I don’t get enough responses here on this blog at the moment. You pretty much need to have an announced or live project to get many responses, it seems.
Fact remains:
I did IPY because I saw a need in the community that was refused repeatedly. I saw people clumsily try to fill this need a few times with free servers. So I went ahead and did it correctly (some would argue against that, but their arguments are ultimately fairly weak considering where free shards were at before IPY - this is not to say that I wouldn’t have changed the way I did a LOT OF THINGS, but hindsight is 20/20, and armchair administration of a server with tens of thousand of people is, trust me, much simpler than actually doing it.)
Because of the above, I would not likely RE-DO IPY. I’ve moved on with my life. Things are different. Future MMO projects would be steps forward in various directions, never steps backward. Hold onto your panties and enjoy what I do when I do it. I’m independent. I can’t do things as fast or on the scale as EA, Sony, Blizzard, etc.
But you can trust that I will do things. And I hope you enjoy my direction and my philosophy.
If not, well, there are ALWAYS free shards to play.
-Az
September 8th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
I will read your other post about the sandbox idea. But I wanted to mention, I did not say that you couldn’t do these things in WoW except that they did things properly. I wasn’t targeting WoW specifically.
I never questioned that It was hard administering the server. Ofcourse with that many people it would be hard.
You make it sound as if Im somehow critisizing you, Im not.
You don’t have to get so defensive.
As far as im concerned IPY was a success. If you’re referring to all of the other “free” servers out there they are a waste of time.
The difference between quake deathmatch and Uo is that you have a persistant world. where quake is once you kill your opponent and then you guys do that level which is like the size of a box over and over again. also different type of game its a shooter.
Also, when referring to WoW, what makes it different from that as well? You do the same AV, EYE OF STORM, over and over. or you do endgame instances over and over till ur sick.. I can’t even count the amount of times my guilds did endgame instances. And they also get the same weapons in endgame too, with different gems.
I wasn’t writing any of this in a personal attack because I don’t know you. I was simply stating that as a fan of Pre-uor and being on IPY for around 2 years that I believe that IPY should be brought back. Years after it closed people still want to play again.
September 8th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
re-open ipy please.
the run uo staff are a bunch of fucking losers that dont give a shit about anything except donations
September 8th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
btw i am the guy in the picture on the main ipy page spamming “WJAT THE FUCK IS THIS” at brit gy.
September 8th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Oh and nobody really knows a whole lot about whats going on on this site anymore. Hell, I only check it out once every 5 months or so but I have recently came on once a week since I heard you may be re-opening ipy.
Once the word spreads there would be a good demand, everyone is sick of UO:Divinity and Secondage has a shit player base and statloss, although it is an excellent shard.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
“Also, when referring to WoW, what makes it different from that as well? You do the same AV, EYE OF STORM, over and over. ”
You’re absolutely right about that. That’s one of the things I hate most about WoW, actually.
Though - I wasn’t defending WoW. I also wasn’t being defensive. I was just making a point. :)
September 9th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Azaroth, I answered your long questionaire in the sanbox thread.
Regarding your observation in this thread that everyone in old UO wound up being a mage or a dexer, you must acknowledge that outcome was merely the a result of the limited amount of available skills at the time. There would have been a much larger amount of popular templates if weapon insta-hit hadn’t been nerfed around the time weapon special attacks were introduced. If insta-hit was left in at the same time as special attacks, we would have had archer mages, sword mages, mace mages, fencing mages, “nox mages”, “stun mages”, “scribe mages”, med-fighters, dexers, hider or stealthers, thieves, plus the occasional eval med fighter. Or what if mana regen through armor hadn’t been nerfed so hard with the introduction of meditation? If there were other schools of magic and fighting, there would have been even more variety. The limited amount of templates was a result of the limited amount of skills.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:57 am
You’re right there, theoretically.
Of course, there’s a problem with that when you’re talking about a Pre-UO:R shard. I’d have gotten anthrax in the mail had I introduced schools of magic and such on IPY. Why?
Well, it’d fundamentally alter the game. But possibly for the better, especially when you’re looking at longevity.
The real issue is that PvP people would argue that it disrupts the skill factor involved in PvP. Perfect balance isn’t possible, so some templates are going to be more effective against other templates and you create a dreaded Rock/Paper/Scissors situation. Obviously some balance has to be achieved so that people PICK different templates, and that’s hard enough.
So one thing the PvP guys enjoyed tremendously was the fact that everyone was the same so that whoever used their character the best won. That’s why I equate oldschool UO and a lot of player desires for a PvP game to ultimately just wanting to play Quake.
Not to mention that special abilities, schools of magic, and the like as well as MMOs being what they are in general will generally encourage some level of itemization beyond what UO had - another thing UO PvP players would hate.
Explore those lines of logic and the desire to curb rampant PKing that other games at the time didn’t have a problem with, and you understand why Pre-UO:R became extinct very organically.
Plus, the “base” simplified world that PvPers prefer has no long term appeal. Even to PvPers.
My point here is that classic UO is a ruleset and a game fraught with long term viability complications. Going about updating the design (which is what you’re suggesting) requires a lot of solutions that will immediately alienate the people who are playing it.
Is a sandbox possible that incorporates a balanced design, more content and options, and some more traditional elements that will appeal to a larger audience?
Sure. But where do you draw the line? Aren’t you halfassing your appeal to both camps? Wouldn’t those players be happier either just playing WoW or Quake III?
September 11th, 2008 at 12:48 am
I think you are oversimplifying things when you state PvP players enjoyed the fact that everyone had similar skills and gear. All those players had FPS games, but they enjoyed Pre-UOR a lot more than Quake. I don’t think oldschool players would care much if alternate templates incorporating poisoning, scribing, etc. were implemented on IPY, so long as the Pre-UOR insta-hit and spell timers were still maintained.
If I had to distill the fun of Pre-UOR down to its basic essence, I think the most primary things PvP players really enjoyed from Pre-UOR were (from most important to least important):
1. the spell/weapon combos (insta-hit)
2. FFA pvp with karma system
3. lack of emphasis on gear
4. player housing
The spellcasting timer system, precasting, and the insta-hit mechanic combined together for an amazingly fun spell/weapon system. In my opinion, accurate reproduction of those elements are the vital heart of a Pre-UOR shard. Think back: when OSI removed insta-hit, an entire spell/weapon combo playstyle - which PvPers loved - completely evaporated overnight; the combos weren’t viable anymore. OSI “replaced” that style of play with special attacks and stuns, with the stated goal of encouraging a wider variety of playstyles and templates. In my opinion, special moves should have been additions rather than replacements.
Regarding the importance of spelltimer mechanics, I appreciate Ryan and Zippy doing all they do on their emulator, but it is painfully obvious that IPY’s timers were much better than UOG’s have ever been, in terms of staying true and accurate to the spell and weapon mechanics that existed at the time of Pre-UOR. For some reason, Ryan and Zippy don’t seem concerned with those timers at all; they are content to leave their spells spammable, and get perturbed when someone brings up the issue. The compromised accuracy makes for a system that isn’t as enjoyable as it could be.
I agree with you that oldschool players would dislike emphasis on “itemization”, as you call it. I have heard many oldschoolers state their disdain for World of Gearcraft, and its obsession with endless grinding toward next season’s 5% upgrade. I have no hesitation in agreeing, that shit certainly feels superficial and mighty queer from Day 1, and the grind gets old quite fast when you have previously experienced the unfiltered greatness of Old UO. If you are playing a gear-centric game like WoW, you find yourself logging enormous amounts of hours just to keep up with the Joneses, and you wind up asking yourself why the hell are you grinding for these abstract points and tokens for this ubergear anyway, since the game will still remain the plastic, neutered, anti-sandbox it has always been. You and everyone else standing around in Orgrimmar are impotent to affect the communities of Azeroth with the kind of depth that was possible in Britannia.
Getting back to the crux of your main question, I think a sandbox is possible that incorporates -”balanced design” (avoid rock/paper/scissor PvP and provide a wider variety of viable skills than Old UO did);
-more “content and options” (quests for skill advancement rather than macroing in your house; maybe also non-instanced raid-type encounters; house and ship ownership and customization; weapon and armor customization)
-while maintaining “traditional elements” (not sure what you are referring to here). Anyway, it is late; sorry for the spam.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:20 am
Well, while I do bring up UO a fair amount, I usually do it in an attempt to draw parallels and make points.
I can’t comment on freeshards much, either. I’m glad you enjoyed IPY and my timers, though.
But that all raises another point. Adding stuff is great, but UO players not only like things a certain way - but they like their *UO*.
If I put up a shard or a new game with all of the clasic sandbox elements, and then redid magic, added new skills, totally redid combat but left in the ability to deliver combos and made timing a large factor in competitive combat - would all of these UO players jump on board?
Or do they want THEIR spells, THEIR spell timers, THEIR combat timing and gameplay, etc.The stuff they’re familiar with.
That’s where my problem is with just putting up another UO shard (or, well, one of the many problems I have with it). Been there, done that. Other people are doing it now, too - quite a few of them.
Yeah, disappointing to people who JUST WANNA PLAY PRE-UO:R. I was one of those guys, obviously. Or I wouldn’t have run, especially for free.
You’re spot on about grinding in WoW, and there are a few other things I’ll comment about when I get around to my next post.
All of this talk about these topics sure is stimulating my desire to get off my ass and do something about it, though.
Oh, and by the way - I’m pretty sure people would have screamed bloody murder if I introduced nox mages and shit into IPY.
September 12th, 2008 at 3:38 am
I infact liked NoX mages, and the reason why I think they wouldn’t have affected gameplay much is because they use up skill points that makes them have deficiencies in other areas which gives them no advantage.
I played a stealth mage on either Ipy or Redemption which was a viable template if you were doing it in teams, also Stealth dexer is a good template too especially if you have DP’d weapons and pots.
there are viable options for fighter models in uo though most didn’t explore these.
I also liked when they introduced the increased spell damage with scribing skill and also the alchemy increase to pots.
I just think that the fundamental system of skill on pre-uor is what makes the game fun, because if you take time to develop your skill you feel a sense of real accomplishment, instead of your charachter gaining a skill which seems to provide not alot of accomplishment. it becomes more of a click-kill game when items are introduced because if you have a clear advantage you win.
I’ll tell you what though, I really miss IPY and the winter always presents alot of time to play which makes it worse. I really wish you would reconsider putting IPY back up, see if people would actually come back and start logging onto their old accounts. UO on IPY was nothing short of magic, it felt just like the old days and alot of the old timers from Beta to pre ren actually logged onto this server creating many re-connections with old guildmates and friends from OSI servers.
September 14th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Would it all feel the same way after you’ve played ten of the Pre-Ren shards that came up since then?
I’m really happy that IPY recaptured the feeling (somewhat, of course nothing is EXACTLY the same) of oldschool UO for some people. That means it succeeded at exactly what it was meant to do.
But people got tired of it after a while, moving on to WoW and whatever else. That’d happen again, and probably faster. Putting IPY up for 3 months every winter would turn it into a holiday shard that nobody took seriously, and that’s what it was never meant to be.
Besides, there’s always the Darkfall beta coming up this winter.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:30 pm
for the love of god bring ipy back divinity is dead and has like 120 players online every night
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Why do you think that happened?
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
It’s an honest question.
Actually, maybe I’ll make a post about this and everyone can put their opinions there. Hopefully I’ll actually follow through this time.
Just seems like all I’ve been posting about is UO lately.