by Azaroth | August 13th, 2009
This is actually a topic I did not too long ago (and I’m sure before that), but it’s far more visibly relevant at this point.
Here’s the post I made then. The only thing I need to add is that I want points of view from everyone. I’ll generally already know who you are and what point of view you’re coming from (and if I don’t, it’s never difficult to figure out) – so just throw it out there. I’m not posting this stuff for my health or because it contains groundbreaking revelations for you as a reader. It’s here because I’m genuinely looking for discussion and opinions on certain things before I set any plans in stone.
So far people seem to think that statloss is a good idea. After witnessing the last incarnation of IPY, I’m agreeing to a certain extent at this point. If we want to get terribly interested in finding a way around statloss itself, here’s the place you have my ear. If you think letting reds run free is the best thing to do, again.
The thing to remember is that I don’t want to get wacky and do anything anticlassic. Posting ideas that wouldn’t apply to a classic shard is fine, but remember that we’re trying to discuss a server that, while not strictly classic, is aiming to be generally a classic experience.
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statloss might of been designed backward like you say, it was a necessary evil. The reason why we have this discussion is probably the same one that OSI had back then when they wanted to control the red problem.
I had a pk with J-D on the chesapeake server and I also had a pvp character. Playing smart and safe like we did in J-D meant that we almost never had a death in our groups.
Now if someone wants to go rampage and kill everyone he encounters, well, he can. But assume that if you die, you are going to lose a percentage of your skills. This “red control” that is statloss makes it that retarded people that only wants to ruin people’s fun will almost certainly die, and fast. Meaning they won’t be back for a while(if they do come back).
I think that we do not need that kind of people on a shard. Statloss makes people more responsible towards their actions and more civil in a certain way.
You’re still going to have pks running around. But they will choose their target more carefully and won’t stick around the same spot for long periods of time.
anyhow, its all about pvp not pkin newbs ;)
sorry if its not that clear, my english is not that good :p
Actually, that’s a great reply. It got my mind moving about statloss and a few other things.
Ideally statloss isn’t a perfect solution. But if we’re trying to stay within the boundaries of classic rulesets, maybe it’s a good idea. Or maybe a slightly altered version of statloss would be a good idea.
One thing you mentioned that I dont’ like is that statloss does actually promote huge roving gank squads of reds. While they deserve some way to protect themselves, I think that’s the opposite effect a red penalty should have. But it’s imperfect, not completely worthless. Might be a pretty good idea.
Pks in UO, unlike rl psychotic murderers, still enjoy all kinds of benefits from society. They may freely use all kinds of buisnesses and shops simply by using a blue character and then transferring any goods to their red one.
Here is an idea I came up with some time ago considering the problem.
If number of accounts is limited to one, then what if that whole account became red with the red character. That would enforce a number of challanges upon the pk. Such as no or very little banking and shopping. Of course, you can still go around this by using a friend who is not a pk. But chances are most groups of friends use the same play style. In any case, it would remove tons of the more less hardcore pks and make their lives a lot less comfortable.
It would also make a certain amount of sense. Much more so than statloss. “Hey there is b00ned00d, known associate (same player as) of the murderous scum pk-killa, let’s kill him! Oh no wait he’s blue” (???)
Back in the day, anti-pk pluggers on atlantic would actually be red for this reason. To be able to kill the blue characters of known pks (who would usually hang around and try to EV people).
Two more things.
1. I saw some guy advocating some kind of fel/tam. Don’t.
2. Whatever pk restricting system you come up with. It has to be in from day one. Saying after two months that, “sorry but this isn’t working out” and putting in statsloss will be too late.
Just my opinion.
Completely agreed. It’s hard to change things after the fact because people feel ambushed.
Traditional 10% stat-loss is a good deterrent, but it does have issues. The first is the gank squad mentality that has already been mentioned. This sucks, but if the server is big enough to have a large pk guild, it should be large enough to have a larger anti-pk guild. The second issue with statloss is that it really works best on a server with a large playerbase. If the server has less than 300 people online, it’s not worth being red. From a pvper’s perspective, less reds = less pvp.
Ideally, statloss should have a penalty that deters bad pvpers from being red, while leaving profit for the good pvpers (even if they have to take statloss and re-macro occasionally).
2 accounts per IP is probably a good restriction. 1 account per IP would definitely be more hardcore, but I don’t see how it benefits the game. I guess it keeps people from playing by themselves?
Well, community interdependence is always a good thing in UO.
As far as a large shard having a large pk guild and a large anti-pk guild… I remember IPY being of a decent size. I remember plenty of PK guilds. I don’t… think I remember any serious anti-PK guilds whatsoever.
Player justice pretty much never occurs naturally. But I’ve got a few ideas for that. Hopefully they’re not terrible.
IPY never had a real stat loss system. Anti-pk guilds rarely exist to serve “justice.” They exist to kill pks and take their loot. The only difference between pks and anti-pks is that the anti-pks haven’t committed to the risk of stat loss.
IPY didn’t have a significant group of anti-pks because there was no reason not to be a pk. Even when you implemented the red patch, the only cost of dying was a 10 minute rez timer. Not a big deal when everyone has at least 2 characters. If you have a stat loss system, you’ll have dedicated pvpers on each side of the fence.
UOSecondAge uses a pretty traditional stat loss model and it demonstrates this case on a smaller scale. Unfortunately, they’re population is so small that it actually limits pvp. There are far more “anti-pks” than there are pks on that server. Bounty boards are a small benefit to killing pks, but the bounties never get as big as they were on OSI.
Yeah, that red patch was pretty insignificant. All I wanted to do was make being red slightly less convenient in a few small ways so more people would choose O/C PvP.
Even still, the nerdrage was off the charts. Imagine if I would have put statloss in.
Az – there were antis on IPY but they were nonfactors at a certain threshold in the culture and community.
Av – 1 IP would limit the ability to macro/develop/bot fiendishly solo.
Azaroth – Looking back, it’s amazing that people actually cared about the red patch, but it was a really big deal. The server population dropped pretty significantly in response. Stat loss would have cut the population in half.
I still think it serves a good purpose, but it needs to be implemented from the beginning (as you’ve already stated).
Idea:
No statloss.
But, if one character on your account goes red, all characters then become red.
Possibly also one account per IP?
“One thing you mentioned that I dont’ like is that statloss does actually promote huge roving gank squads of reds”
Yes it does but statloss also makes it that they have to be really carefull, so any group of players good or less good would be able to make them recall/run off. At least thats how it was on chesapeake back then. We just did not take any chance.
btw: If you make a beta i’d like to test it if possible :) Im tired of grinding on darkfall
That’s true, hector, and it’s a good thing. Who I’m worried about are the newbies in the dungeons getting rolled by gangs of 15 PKs and then leaving the server with the impression that the PKing problem is worse than ever before.
I’m not sure what the best strategy is to protect the newbies, but I hope it’s not that big of an issue. For every red that does die in that gank squad, he’s out of the picture for a while. It seems like it would be difficult to maintain 15 active reds on a server with good blue competition.
At the end of the day, it’s UO. The game is supposed to be a little frustrating :)
Additional counter-measure you could take are to have reds unable to join parties or unable to recall in/out of dungeons, but I think that’s too much to add on top of stat loss. The party thing would be less effective now that the client has sticky bars anyway.
Ah yes, stickybars. The ultimate help for cheap PvP. Fantastic move, EA.
Being unable to recall in and out of dungeons would be interesting, but harsh as hell. It’d give any anti-PKs an actual opportunity to catch up the the reds, but on top of statloss it just seems like way too much.
Omg Hector, what are you thinking! Lol…
Stickybars as in, when peoples bars stay on screen after you break total All-Names/LoS on them? I always thought that was just the client bugging out, cuz half the time the name disappears on them or whatever. Interesting. I guess it does have a bad side, but doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal.
What about no recall for reds. Hehehe… It’s funny, how game design can either limit reds entirely or backfire and just cause them to rove in a group. I have a feeling if this is done right, specifically targetting shit that these “wannabe” pks would flock to, then you’d be able to limit their zergosity.
That’s an… interesting comment, Yaht. You may have just caused incredible frustration for hundreds of wannabe reds.
Good going.
The main benefit I see to it, assuming the majority of the server is NOT red, is NOT the direct risk vs reward, rather, the fact that PKs would not be able to roll through *EVERY* *DUNGEON* in 90 seconds. THIS is the main problem presented with a red-heavy community and a lack of HARD counters to “being red cuz it’s easier risk vs reward”
Basically, imagine if there was NO recall into dungeons for ANY char. On top of that, NO recall for reds ANYWHERE. So there you are giving incentive for people to go spread out and get balls deep with the PvE (assuming botting is stymied and the “best” way to grind cash/etc is deep in a dungeon), and PKs cannot simply “zerg up” and sweep thru EVERY HOT SPOT within a minute. It would take time and whatnot.This means blues/pvers/char developers would be more inclined to go to good cash spots in dungeons. They would linger instead of killing 2 Balrons and dipping to another spot. They would know that PKs are coming at some point, but it’s not gonna be EVERY FIVE MINUTES…
Some way to slow down the pace of the “direct grind” and forcing more legitimate risk vs reward. Injecting bulwarks like diesel statloss, no recalling / gating for reds is something I think is necessary if you want to facilitate genuine risk vs reward at this point in UO’s maturation.
No recall in dungeons at all and no recall for reds anywhere would create an interesting dynamic. I don’t want to discourage anyone from playing, though.
For clarity.. are you including the gate spell here, or?
I am including gate spell but that might be too much.
The basic idea is that either reds will group up to PK the dungeons together in this dynamic, because the risk of dying solo is greater with stat loss,… or reds can communicate on the fly about targets, which their backup will surely not arrive in time to help gank said target. Either they group up and as a result each get less loot and check less spots less frequently, or they decide to communicate on the fly and go solo to find targets, which present a greater return (not splitting it up, not wasting time all in one spot), but greater risk.
Sorry if this is confusing but its legit.
Do you think the motivation of most PKs is really loot to that extent?
It seems like a harder route to profit than running mining/logging bots, etc. Especially considering most newbies have three pieces of bone armor and a storebought katana.
For a lot of people, it seems to me like it’s more about indiscriminant maliciousness for the sake of fun.
If we tighten the screws on EUO and the ability of people to make tons of gold really easily, it might become more about profit, however.
It’s definitely not the most profitable character to have, but it is the most entertaining way to make money.
We got all of our regs and gear (consumables) from pking/pvping, but our houses were all paid for by farming. Well, farming and the slot machine.
For the zerg groups, there’s no way that pking is about money, because there’s never going to be enough to go around. I’m guessing it’s just the only way they can feel like winners.
Az, I’m not saying it’s about loot, rather, loot and staying afloat in risk vs reward is what makes that playstyle feasible for people. The more difficult it is to “live off the fat of the land” (in this case, fat = bluebie loot), then the “red” playerbase will reflect that in the #s that participate in that playstyle.
If theres a server with statloss, no recalling/gating for reds, and a healthy sizable population with great activity, then you’re not going to see any old jerkoff rolling around with a main that is red.The only people who would make the cut, are people in it for the fun / challenge (*true* pkers) who can afford the long term risk for somewhat insignif returns on the short term.
Two points:
I think you’re overestimating the amount of logic behind the bulk of PKing. Harshing up the risk vs. reward factor in PKing will drive some people off. Maybe even in significant numbers, if only out of protest.
I still think MOST people PK just because they can and it has nothing to do with loot. In fact, I suspect assuming otherwise would be disastrous. Imagine introducing the ability to kill other players to Club Penguin. No loot, though. You’ve still got a complete shitstorm on your hands. People are just going to do it for the sake of griefing other people.
I also personally enjoy the idea of statloss and no recall/gating for reds. In fact, I’d personally probably have a red character that I played actively. The challenge would be impossible to resist.
Problem is that most people also arent’ interested in a challenge. Statloss and no recall/gate would be far, far too harsh for the vast majority of people.
I can see value in stat loss OR no recall/gating/etc for reds, but the combination of the two is overkill. You will either eliminate reds altogether or require them to roll in the largest group possible, neither of which represents the best of UO.
Personally, I would risk stat loss or the inconvenience of dying frequently for the enjoyment of pking, but I’m obviously not going to do both. Dying frequently + stat loss = not playing. It’s like saying it’s okay to smoke, but you have to fight lions with your bare hands for each cigarette. Technically smoking wouldn’t be illegal, but it may as well be.
If you want to curb the effects of zerg pking, eliminating gate and recall altogether is probably the best solution. It would really take pking back to how it used to be on OSI, when pks used to camp in dungeons.
I see how you guys feel.
I think the solution then is no gate / recall.
Then slow down skill gains a to slower than IPY.
Eh???
Slow, but achievable, skill gain is a good thing for a server. GMing Magery should probably cost 100-120k and GMing Magery and Resist together should probably be around 200k. If the server has monster loot that’s comparable to the original IPY, that should keep people farming in dungeons and selling craftable goods for quite some time.
Skill gain on IPY might have actually been perfect. Limiting gold supply on vendors would have really reduced macroing and slowed skill gain from the start, because people wouldn’t have been selling fancy shirts and wooden shields all day.
There’s always a race for crafters to be the first GM Smith or Bowyer on a new shard. It would be much more rewarding if they weren’t able to macro their skills and selling the byproducts to vendors in town all day.
im more in favor of statloss than no recall/gate for reds. I can manage statloss but no fast travel…ehhh
Perhaps we require a poll.
a poll and a forum :)
Oh, Avernus. Wait until things get rolling a bit more. At the moment I’m still trying to get used to the idea of running another UO server. I need to figure out how to live my life around it first – I won’t allow it to be as consuming as it was last time. There’s just not enough money in it for that. :P
Well I always wish for stuff to be ever more hardcore. I wouldn’t object to a server like siege perilous where vendors don’t buy stuff at all. But I understand that this would kill the crafter population. Limited gold and no EasyUO, unattended resource gathering feels like a good compromise.
I think skill gain on IPY was too fast. What was OSI like compared ot IPY? I remember it as much slower. but maybe it was just much easier to get the gold the second time.
What’s your thoughts on housing? Again, I would wish for it to be more expensive.
What did you think about my idea with 1 account only-whole account goes red when 1 char goes red Az? Not much by judging from the lack of response? :)
Well, here’s the rub:
Since accounts are free, the smarter ones will be creating second accounts for their mules and blues. The people who are actually affected by it will be accidental reds and those that don’t know the rules of the server well.
I like the idea behind the idea, but as always things become more complicated in practice.
I’d like to say that it did give me an idea, though.
and what’s that idea?
If I let you know that, I’d have to pay royalties to Prydwen.
Of course you gotta pay me, too. I brought up 1 IP per account last article. I will go Stewie on your ass!
1 account per IP ends up being a little less than ideal, too. Anyone serious about cheating will get around that and in the mean time you cause a problem for families, multi player households, etc.
The big problem with people abusing multiple accounts per IP would be macroing, EasyUO resource gathering and a few other things like stashing ill-gotten goods across dummy accounts, etc. We can counter all of that fairly decently with better tracking and some anti-macro stuff.
I think I speak for the rest of these gimps when I say that I can’t wait to see some of your uber fresh ideas come to life!
BTW I’m still going Stewie on your ass.
True, one ip per account has always been problems, and the clients can just say “Oh my roommate wants to play!” – what proof do you have if hes telling the truth or not.
I think perhaps instating a perma red system and a system where you are unable to resurect based on 1 murder = X hours, is the best system.
Incentives to stay blue?
Bounty system that cant be exploited?
What’s the DEAL with these reds? Who ARE these people who go red?
i’d say 80% of them are griefers, not so good pvpers that cant afford to fight good ones. thats why there must be some kind of pk control, else it goes to shit and all the newbies quit.
I was actually just referring to keuse calling me ‘jerry fucking seinfeld’.
:P
‘Jerry Fucking Springer’ would be more appropriate, considering the clowns in this crowd :)
Whats the DEAL with Corn Nuts???????
I have a few UO buddies that I gave my user id to to post on here when I referenced your site, so thats probably what happened – but I imagine the “jerry fucking seinfeld” thing came from the fact that IPY was sort of like seinfeld in the sense that you closed it down before it turned into complete shit.
Don’t be under the impression that I had my feelings hurt. ;)
ok m8
Make it so that PKs have to loot from within the bag!
Statloss is a good way to balance out the pkers and non-pkers.