by Azaroth | October 17th, 2009
Pre-UO:R players are notoriously difficult to handle when you start discussing loot and items. We don’t want anything new or fruity, but the same old force/power/vanq stuff forever is boring and gives nobody any real reason to fight monsters beyond snagging some gold. Once you have all you need, it’s hard to find a reason to step into a dungeon. For a PvE player, it’s hard to find a reason to play period.
Oldschool UO is great, but ignoring its faults is pure blindness.
So how do you spice things up? Beyond that, how do you interest people to engage in something more difficult than EVing Blood Elementals? Can I really interest you in quest lines and difficult encounters with a bag of vanqs? Really?
So far, simple and unoffensive solutions present themselves fairly rarely. Solving the problem while maintaining a classic UO flavour is the name of the game.
For instance – only being able to find Summon Fire Elemental scrolls on, duh, Fire Elementals as a (somewhat) rare drop will not only provide an interesting PvM incentive, but create a market for high end scrolls. Find, buy, or otherwise acquire (ahem) that Fire Elemental scroll that nobody can buy from the shop and set your price as a Scribe.
High end scrolls were quite expensive on IPY, but not to the effect that I wanted. It ended up being a speedbump and a minor annoyance a lot of times more than it was a benefit to the player economy. That can’t possibly happen here – It’ll either work as a PvM incentive, as a bonus to crafters, or both.
Beyond that, while rares can be traditionally found randomly (with plenty that require some skill in stealing to acquire), they can also drop on certain monsters, giving rare hunters a reason to get out and PvM.
Without special ores like verite and valorite, inserting the oldschool pre-T2A plate colours would be very interesting. Instead of being found purely on vendors, it can be found partially on vendors and partially on monsters. As a compromise between adding interesting/useful loot and staying out of the way of the PvPer, set bonuses can be applied when an entire set of one colour is equipped – but, like a silver weapon, set bonuses apply to PvE only.
The problem here becomes the fact that PKing PvE players with this armour on becomes by far the most efficient way of getting your hands on it. Wearing it puts a huge target on your back. Imagine if your Tier45 set in World of Warcraft could be looted from your corpse — now imagine if it provided absolutely no advantages against other players. You’d be wearing it for about three minutes – and losing a set that took weeks to put together in one foul swoop like that could certainly cause people to quit. How many times do you want to run Naxx to re-collect that suit just because some DKs ganked you in Arathi Basin? My guess is that the answer is “never”.
The problem is that when you start to attempt solving this problem, you start getting into the area of item insurance and blessed items – or something that people could complain sounds kind of like it. That’s no good, because the PKs will cause a huge ruckus. They want everything off your corpse, and it doesn’t matter what’s good for the game. Fair enough, it’s a classic shard after all.
So, your thoughts? If you think I’m going too far when considering change on 2.0, that’s fine. If you think I’m not going far enough, also fine. But what I’m looking for here are your ideas and suggestions based -around- your personal opinion. Not just your opinion.
Recently it’s been dawning on me that I should just keep my hands almost entirely off of 2.0. So we’ll see. But I’m still curious as to your opinions on loot, PvE, and looting.
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I would just throw 2.0 up there with the exact way IPY used to be.
That is what will bring the most players.
Just my 2 cent
My suggestion is that you keep IPY 2.0 as a simple mirror of the original IPY, unless a majority of the community wants to see some simple changes.
I’m more interested in IPY 3.0, so I’d like to see IPY 2.0 get finished so you can start on 3.0. Like yourself, I believe that UO can become a much more interesting game through some major surgery :)
I really like this idea, but for IPY 2.0 id rather just see it up and running as fast as possible
I think making high end magical weapons extremely difficult to obtain is a good idea and has helped in the past. Also, Tmaps have ruined the market as powers/vanqs were rampant and easily obtainable through them.
Any idea when the new ipy will open? I sure hope it opens soon if you plan on having a beta period i for one will gladly help you test. I am also sure others players will gladly, erm.. honored to test it.
Keep it as close to the original as you can. Pweeease.
I know, guys. It’ll be hard to watch all of the same things happen again, and it’ll be probably the most time sapping and unfulfilling thing I’ve ever done in my entire life, but I get that it’s what you guys want.
Splitting up the ever shrinking pool of possible UO players sounds like a terrible idea. One shard to rule them all!
What if there was a limit of 2 accounts per person, and each account could only have 1 gm crafting skill at a time, or something like this? The reason crafting is gh3y stems from the fact that some people go crazy and macro the shit off 4 accounts to have GM everything, and others get left in the dust who don’t give a shit about crafting. The balance is to let people go nuts crafting, but have a limit so as not to throw it all off kilter.
Even limiting the amount of characters per account an the amount of accounts could go a long way. Then people can’t take it so far and ruin things for everyone.
Imagine if each account could only have 2 characters and you only got 2 accounts? Make one a tank mage and the other a fighter, the other account could be two crafters, each with the limit of 2 gm craft skills so one has mining and smith the other lumberjacking and carpentry.
Oh and remember seige perlious? maybe dont make skill gain so hard but a little harder — but making money from vendors kind of cheapens other aspects of the game
and on that note towns are so benign its depressing, towns should have competitive relationships, and npc guilds should have different advantages in your town as opposed to other towns.
guards should immediately help members of a guild in that town but only run to the scene for non-town-guild members or something
otherwise it becomes unguarded vs guardszone bases and there is no reason to be one place over the other
towns also need heavier involvement by PCs instead of being all npcs — maybe instead of generic fully stocked npc stores, the npc provisioner in britain, for example, will have lanterns and pouches, but the npc provisioner in trinsic will have checker boards, pouches, and torches…. like that — but they will have that limited, unique inventory PLUS what people of the corresponding guild of that town provide to the vendor to sell to other people – and they will make money off those vendors just like player-run vendors work in the game now
and much more, but i have to go to the gym, to get swoll, if thats a thing
i love you azaroth :( !!!
<3
Well Az, these ideas are awesome. But it seems to me that it should be implemented in IPY 3. Put IPY 2 up and work calmly on IPY 3. These discussions shouldnt be rushed, as they are too important.
Though you could use IPY 2.0 as a beta server for IPY 3.0. So implement whatever things you like, but keep the pvp the same. This way both parties get their share.
Lefty
Azaroth, I would strongly advocate that you do add new items in an effort to correct some of the short comings of pre UO:R and to attract a larger player base. It is possible to add functional items without diluting the essence or “spirit” of pre UO:R. For instance, if the items are craftable, lootable, and not in themselves overpowering. The bleating of “don’t change this” should be ignored as simple reactionary fear unless it can provide reasons.
I’ll give you the specifics of my suggestion, but first allow me to provide some pretext. In my mind there exists a continuum for obtaining items in MMORPGS. On one end is the “encounter ideal”, where items are dropped during specific events or encounters in game. The most obvious example of the encounter model is raiding where in players obtain items by killing mobs that are limited (there are several interpretations of the encounter model, the most common differentiation between them is whether or not the game supports instances). On the other end of the spectrum is the “crafted ideal”, where an item COULD be obtained at anytime (there are usually prerequisites to obtaining that item as a way keeping the game engrossing).
Following the aforementioned ideals, it is obvious that pre UO:R leans heavily upon the crafted model. There is some gray area, but it tends to be the case that, at least for the majority of people who choose combat as their characters primary interaction with the game world, that GM equipment, which is a clear extension of the crafted model, was the most common level of gear among players who had maxed out their statistics. That is to say, for the sake of the reactionaries advocating against the implementation of new functional items into IPY, that crafted items aren’t inconsistent with “spirit” or pre UO:R.
What I would suggest, then, is to use the crafting system as a means of adding new functional items into the game. However, to address you original problem, that players might not interact with PvE aspect of the game, why not tie the crafting system, and ultimately the top teir item progression, in with the killing of mobs? Perhaps lich lords could drop femurs that, are the prerequisite for a katana with magical resist properties; or, wyverns teeth are the key ingredient in the creation of a dagger that has increases the level of administered poison that is applied to it. This system would provide a more consistant means of gaining top tear items, as opposed to the magic suffix system.
I ommitted some of the nuances, but I hope this is useful, Azaroth, in helping you come to a decision about whether to include new items or not. I ommited some of the nuances to the arguements to save some space.
CURSE YOUR LACK OF AN EDIT FEATURE
i think that anything new implemented in the game should only be able to be implemented by crafters with certain stipulations.
who needs to edit? we are the kings of the internet.
But I will add that it would be a good idea to have a huge Police Force that will answer pages regarding unattended resource gathering as well as checking for it themselves and SERIOUSLY BUST PPL.
If you catch ppl unattended resource gathering, send a strong message by giving them a 1 strike rule. ‘If I catch you gathering ore and shit ONE TIME Im banning the whole account. Bitch. ‘
Also, maybe some minor tweaking to monster loots here and there to encourage activity in the lower end dungeons/floors.
I can have plenty of counselors if I severely restrict their abilities. I did at one point in time, but carved the volunteer ranks down in a serious manner once I witnessed all of the ridiculous drama that went on. Start handing out status in a video game and all hell breaks loose, really.
theJerkstore: Good post, better name.
Really nice post jerkstore! Well thought out and well written, I hope something like that gets implemented, be it IPY 2.0 or 3.0.
Lefty
just a question, is it just staff members your waiting to recruit to launch ipy? or was jan just a date you had in mind?
I am beginning to think that announcing IPY 2.0 was a little premature.
I don’t really remember announcing anything. I remember having discussions on my personal blog and other people announcing it for me – right down to a launch date. None of which ever actually happened.
Just sayin’.
Why are people getting upset because someone doesn’t have a game done in a month?
I think that adding new lootable items to IPY 2.0 is a good idea, as long as they don’t damage the gameplay that people tend to look for in a preuor shard. Don’t hurt pvp, don’t hurt the economy, and don’t make brit bank look too hideous.
People enjoy having things to aspire for in UO; to trade, sell, buy, steal, and loot. You’re probably not too familiar with the Divinity server but they had a lootable rares system that was fairly popular for a time. The only problem with that system that I saw was that it made some already existing rares, from not so rare to very rare, lootable. The lootable rares weren’t game mechanics changing type pixels but rather just some phat lewts for people to gather up. Speaking of rares and divinity, they also used to have a pretty elaborate rares system (maybe they still do). They had everything from daily rares to monthly rares.
Anyway I think that my point is this: why the hell not add some cool lootable items, so long as they don’t do the obvious nono’s.
If you’re talking about gold and weapons as well then my opinion on that is the harder the better. Especially with the weapons.
jesus christ shut the fuck up already.
LoL…This guy is a joker…Letīs just do what we always do…Ignore him!! I like different loots…I remember on Redemption…They had a Red and green leather that u could only get from Unicorns and Nightmares (forgot t heir names)….It would give u a bit of advantage on the leather AR but it was more of a visual thing…On IPY they could spawn on different spots for example….I think this type of Loot that doesnt change the mechanics of the game, could really add…. Group dungeons are great also…Even better if u cant go with tamers…So u really need to interact with other players to get a specific loot…
Scarcity is what drives markets. Making 8th circle scrolls drop 1/100th of the time on a monster of equal hardness is perfect. Once someone GM’s inscription, thou, there goes that incintive to farm those monsters for scrolls as crafting will be a easier route. So the second/third tier of the PVM Incentive Plan is:
PVM IP Platnium Edition:
#1 – Make gold drops scale as the hardness of the monsters increases/decreases (typical stuff) but scaled way back to make cash a rare
#2 – Rare drops: Monster statues of current monster, rare colored clothing/cloth (NO NEON, like blood red or black),
#3 – As suggested above, use monster items (teeth, brimstone, other necro reg, whatever) to develop higher end GM items (either strength or just plain color of the item).
I like the idea of making monsters drop rare items that have to be used by crafters to gain the ability of them. It helps bridge the divide between crafters pvm and pvp.
Example:
Kill Dragon, find a vial of dragons blood, Dragons blood when combined by a GM blacksmith with a GM weapon, DOESN’T have to happen at the creation of the weapon could be anytime later, gains +2 attack but -5 durabilty and becomes a special hue of Dark Grey.
#4 – Skill gain in dungeons is faster than macroing. Aleady discussed and I believe a great benefit to the shard.
In regards to PK’ing:
Pks shouldn’t be a problem with the correct risks for them. Stat loss is the only way I would try to curb it. I believe it cuts the problem down. If you die, macro time or take the loss. Plus with skill gain being hard it would really derail the rampant reds that we currently see in free shards (look at UOSA ya ya I know but it works).
Scarcity may drive markets, but util of satisfaction drives sustained consumerism. Whether or not your preference for getting an Earth Elemental scroll once every hundred kills in Shame level 1 is satisfactory or completely retarded is in the eyes of the gamer here. I dunno if I’m buying or selling that.
Good comment, but I don’t think a straight Pre-UO:R ruleset drives sustained anything. I think that’s been proven enough times by now.
There’s the problem, Azaroth. The addition of content is responsible for more than sustaining a community; it enables it. Appeasing the community’s insatiable hunger for content is an integral component of a successful server. However, this is the problem with era specific servers: being successful isn’t synonymous with being accurate.
Introducing a katana with magical resistance properties, a weapon infused with the power of dragon’s blood for an attack bonus, or a dagger that modifies the level of administered poison were not available techniques to mitigate magical damage, deal damage, or apply poisons, and fail to preserve the authenticity of the era.
Listen, I believe that the above concepts are terrific, and I am excited for them to be implemented because they would certainly best serve a successful server; they simply don’t serve an era specific one. I recommend this type of content be implemented in the 3.0 server.
I need to point out that it’d be terribly depressing and unfulfilling to put up IPY 2 as a direct copy of IPY, watch the exact same things happen again, and wonder why I refused to learn from my mistakes just because players are shortsighted.
The things I mentioned a were tailor made little solutions for IPY 2. They’re compromises. They’re tiny. They’re things that would hopefully have a good effect but that wouldn’t seem terribly out of place or mess with balance. Hell, 90% of people would probably never even notice. They’re minor tweaks, nothing more.
IPY was never about era accuracy, anyway. What’s the point of being completely era accurate if it’s not fun – or if you could avoid mistakes, make something better, or adapt to the fact that it’s, you know, a decade later?
Besides, it’s not possible to be completely accurate unless you take old archived Stratics guides seriously (just fyi – I wrote more than one of those guides on Stratics, and I had no more access to the code than any of you).
The plan is to leave things more or less just the way they were on IPY. Ultima Online is about nostalgia, not moving forward. At this point, anyway. I get it.
Doesn’t mean it doesn’t make me want to kick kittens, but I get it.
keuse Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:25 am
jesus christ shut the fuck up already.
-Are you talking to me?
Darthanham_Hood Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
LoL This guy is a joker
-And are you talking about me?
So I give my opinion on the blog as is requested by the OP, an opinion which isn’t much different than some of the other replies made here and you guys get all middle school on me?
As if the two of you were posting ideas that were in any way groundbreaking that you have the right to belittle someone elses post. K then, I guess you prefer the same five guys posting 100 comments per blog, all yours.
Haha, oops. No, sorry. Faust had a post there and I banned him and deleted his posts (five “final warnings” is pretty much the end of the line).
Should have mentioned that. Sorry. ;)
Oh, well it was fun getting all pissy anyway.
hahaha…Itīs all good…
Thanks for that Az.
And yeah, I’d be worried if IPY 2 would be a clone of 2004. There needs to be changes for it to have longevity.
Wait, the Jerk Store ran out of Faust?
I must have misinterpreted your topic. I was under the impression that accuracy was important in 2.0, being classic and all.
Nevertheless, I didn’t have the honor of playing on IPY, but I’m eager to participate in both of the upcoming servers.
Heres my little bit…
UO as it stands (and as it did stand) has some horrible flaws with it – especially on a freeshard.
I understand keeping PvP “as it was” but at a certain point things need to change to keep the game interesting.
I think having IPY2 and IPY3 would honestly hurt this games community even more – we have plenty of freeshards running off and doing their own thing. Thousands of those little 10-40 people Sphere shards and shit…
UO needs custom content to survive.
I think thats just a basic awareness that should be thrown out there.
I really don’t want another “Macro for a week = endgame” server. I’d like for somebody to take the initiative and make a server that houses the same “wild west/free world” that UO:R had and actually add in some custom content.
Make PvE rewarding/challenging/interesting – No purposefuly stupid AI. No “Spam EV’s and summon shit till it’s dead”
For the most part PvP was fine enough back then – though I’d love to see some viability other than Tank Mage/Maybe Dexxers.
Don’t mess with the PvP or the ruleset/color theme and you won’t mess up the nostalgia.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing some custom content. I do like the enchanting idea posted above.(which by the way is very similar to Darkfall’s)
Maybe get rid of the bonuses to GM weapons and have GMs instead have a chance of rolling up to +3dmg(might) or +10 tactics(surpassingly accurate)… thus making them easily comparable to mob dropped items. (but still include the crafter tag) and have mobs drop items that can be included when crafting to up the chances of these rolls.
As long as PvP isn’t seriously impacted by custom content, I’m all for it. Hell even group PvE encounters(as long as rewards are justifiable) would be fun. However some AI/mob stat changes might be necessary for that. An ancient wyrm that can one shot a guy in platemail isn’t going to cut it.
I think it’s time for my favourite thing – A poll!
Hooray Polls.
I think the magic of UO comes from the way it is, item insurance leads to the death of the game. The way it is set up means that there’s a constant cycle of loss and creation, people don’t wear high end armour BECAUSE it will be risky and lost, which give blacksmiths jobs and vendors a purpose without the risk of loss there’s no sense of achievement, insurance is what killed the game, i’m happy with power/vanq/etc
If you were to look back at some of the earlier interviews with the designers of UO, you’ll find they spend a lot of time dealing with issues that players hasn’t came across before on such scale.
Ultima, the series prior to the MMO, was always about choice. The more they worked on the series, the more choices the players had. Their design goal was to open the gaming world with options that players did not find before.
If I were to describe UO, it would be the first game that truely allowed players to have the choice to play any way they wanted.
Take away the PVP and PVE aspect of it for a minute and look at the how game allowed from the single act of stealing, to begging, to killing. Actions had consequences, which players knew both from game knowledge as well as prior knowledge.
I believe it’s safe to say a lot of people ‘grew up’ on these games. We’re all a little older, and hopefully gone past that ‘noob’ state. Any reincarnation of the game will not be the same. We’ll enjoy it for a while, then move on again. Even if the game was 100% matching the original for whatever period in the game we loved, it won’t be the same, because we’re not the same.