by Azaroth | November 22nd, 2009
So first, let’s take a moment to re-discuss dungeon scrolls in a clean space.
The background here is as such:
During a previous discussion on this blog (possibly about loot or macroing), I threw out the idea of increased skill gain inside of dungeons and little skill gain bonuses as loot. These come in the form of Dungeon Scrolls, and while the idea was completely off the top of my head, it’s stuck. I fully intend on integrating something of the sort into the new IPY.
So let’s discuss the concept. In actuality, the basics are being coded up right now. So now is the time to propose your ideas and give your stern warnings regarding game balance and so on.
The goal here is to significantly slow skill gain through macroing and significantly increase it while playing the game. Wacky concept for UO, I know.
Obviously this system is altered to have little effect on new players.
Beyond that, I intend on doing something along the same lines for crafting and miscellaneous skills. This, I’ve intended on doing for some time – but it’s virtually the same idea.
Things like loot, rewards, and questing are severely lacking in Ultima Online. Things like Dungeon Scrolls and adding training scrolls as quest rewards for crafters, thieves and so on go at least some way to addressing that, I feel.
Resource gathering is also an important subject when discussing macroing, skill gain and so on. I have my own ideas for addressing the problems that are presented here – but I’m interested in officially hearing yours before anything is set in stone.
So here it is. This is the thread for discussing all things related to:
Macroing!
Resource Gathering!
Dungeon Scrolls!
Crafting and Crafting Quests!
Here’s your chance to leave your mark and have me seriously consider what you have to say. Just… no PvP arguments, please. ;)
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Well, happy belated Thanksgiving, yada yada yada…
Been chewing on this one for a couple days and simmering for ideas, mostly concerning curtailing resource gathering and unabated skill powergaming at large for 2… and so far…
…I’ve got no ideas that haven’t already been presented or discussed.
I think the scroll idea is good. Slowing skill gain itself is probably a good idea in a blanket form, as well as some other form. I dunno about the CAPTCHA idea, but, it gets juices flowing and I like the idea in theory. Something definitely does need to be done about resource gathering. It has a potential to really defy a lot of core dynamics in relation to the economy, noob-to-pro development, and server maturation in general. When the cat is out of the bag, the cat is REALLY out of the bag. I believe several ideas must be used in tandem, maybe slower skill gain + proactive GMing to keep an eye out for unatended farmers [remember putting crates in front of people on IPY and sometimes you could come back WAAAAAAAY later and they'd still be there running into the crates? Yeah, gotta get a grip on that...] Or maybe CAPTCHAs and slow skill gain and GMs checking + something else. I think the more checks put into the system, without having a negative effect on ACTUAL players, the better. Reminds me of a story…
…in Darkfall, I once attacked a village with my clan, and we successfully sieged it and took it over. This process takes [literally] anywhere from 5 to 8 hours. We attacked late and night and had little resistance, and the entire time I had to stay online and hiding/running from the enemies [if the guildmaster of the attacking guild is killed, the siege is over and the defenders win]. Less than a MINUTE after we had won the siege, an actual Game Master appeared and asked me if I was AFK. I wanted to say “are you fucking stupid??? we just did a god damn seige” and I even considered for a moment, if it was some sort of enemy’s friend playing a GM who would kick me for idling if I didn’t respond or something paranoid like that. When I look back at that, and consider some of the ramifications we are talking about to stop Easy-farming or even macroing in general, I tend to have a different opinion of the GMs actions in hindsight. Maybe the guy was just doing his job – maybe some timer clicked on the server end because I had obviously been logged in for an extreme amount of time by this point, and I had been basically sitting tight with a few body guards in spots and idling / hiding from the defenders [or entire server, anybody can muck up the siege] for a serious serious serious long time – maybe the GM was doing a check to see if I was using a bug because the game was still VERY VERY new and the potential for me using an exploit – who knows? My point of this story is that in the most group-intensive end game scenario in the entire game, GMs were checking to see if I was doing something I shouldn’t have been at the moment of highest player-to-game interaction. I used to think it was some conspiracy type moment, but on the other hand, it shows that someone was trying to make sure everything was being played right.
Seeing as how UO doesn’t have any seminal moments of “win/lose” dynamics, and plays at a much slower and dispersed pace, the checks and the balances need to be spread out and constantly looked into. It is going to be necessary to not only nip Easy farming in the butt from the get go, but also a month from release, a year from release, and pretty much all the times in between. It is absolutely necessary for the game, even a free one for a post-twilight niche community like us, to constantly reassure the playerbase that it holds legitimacy in the highest regard and that nothing will compromise its ATTEMPTS to provide a fair gaming experience and its integrity. It is absolutely crucial that any and all motherfuckers who Easy farm will get their shit tore the fuck up on the spot – not to say people should be reported each other to troll Azaroth til he drops dead from sleep deprevation, but people will surely feel better, every single legitimate player, knowing that staff and the community at large are doing everything they can to stop people from gaining wealth and power without putting in the work.
Concerning housing, I don’t really think it’s a big deal. Again to give an outside example, take a game like Darkfall – you can have a group of 100s of players who devote a hundred thousand hours of game play, and if another group of players want to challenge them on it through game mechanics at the top level, they can and should always have the right to. Material goods in online games are sometimes lost to a better player, sometimes lost to time and decay and attrition, and sometimes, albeit rarely, swiped out from under your feet by someone who was simply showing patience and looking for the right moment to strike. Someone who loots your house might not be a better syncer. They might not be as rich. They might be a god damn noob for all you know – but one thing is for sure. They jumped their hoops [and yours] better than you jumped yours. Run your tracking. Set up some tables. Maybe log another char on the other side of the table. Keep your gold + [big] reg stacks in the bank. Rares stay locked down. Refresh your shit. That’s about as far as you can go with security on your end. If you fail just once, your system is compromised. And if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, you should acknowledge the potential risk in your lapse of judgment. Oh, and another thing – don’t tell anyone your account name or password… ever (sorry again, Sensation)!!!
Secures are cool, too – as long as it’s not a ton of them. Personally I like strong boxes with no other secures! :D
BODs and that type of shit is a great idea, as Trammy as it is. People like Tram; face it. There were some good ideas that were implemented into UO that have nothing to do with killing other people and they can be quite enjoyable and provide a different experience, thus drawing in different types of players who want to do something besides find a way to wear your stupid jester hat and shout “PWNT!” Utility of resources could be expanded possibly or at least tweaked; make Pitchforks useful! Find a use for some of these useless items, particularly the ones you can craft or gather or stumble upon.
Quests are a good thing for any MMORPG, nuff said. Even the most shallow retarded quest is a good thing. People, we’re talking about a super old game with very little lore being utilized at the interactive level. The more depth that is provided in the overall experience, the better.
TLD – read it noobs!
Quest are tricky business, I sat here trying to think of the best quest that I’ve experienced and I couldn’t. My idea of a good quest is a server wide message with a minimal amount of lore; give the blues the means to protect themselves against the inevitable pks and you’ve got yourself a gay ol time.
Well, since most of us agree that it’s up to the staff/players to keep tabs on resource gatherers, there needs to be some ways to make it easier (considering there’ll be 1000+ clients no doubt). I’m sure a script can be written up to keep track of players that are pulling in large amounts of ore/wood. If someone’s going at it for hours straight at a constant rate, staff can be notified and they can check in manually at that point.
And yeah, bring on the Trammy shit as long as it’s in good taste.
CAPTCHA is equally intrusive as a GM coming, just as affective, and relies less on human intervention, which can be hard to have at all times when you staff volunteers.
Player uses mining 100 times in a row. A simple puzzle that anyone can figure out pops up in a gump. For example, at the top of the gump is a picture of a log. and then the player is asked to match that picture to another picture in the list of pictures under it.
If they get it right, carry on. If they get it wrong, they are booted and a “mark” is added to their account. 3 marks and their account is banned. Personally, I would automatically delete their house and anything in it with the banning, to negate any damage they did to the shard. but you’d have to be careful about making sure historical items and uniques didn’t get deleted with it.
quick, affective, and practical.
this is a decent system, but most people know for a fact that easy uo is banned and resource macroing is banned – (other than fishers – newbies dont know things like fishing is considered ‘resource gathering’)
IMO anything that involves setting up an easy uo script, or macroing unattendedly to obtain ignots, ore and boards should be perma banned first offense.
but what if someone misclicks or something 3 times. I mean if this is a life time thing theres a possability you could screw up by mistake.
That’s my biggest worry about a purely automated system to ban/delete players. Somewhere along the road, there needs to be some staff intervention otherwise there will be some unfortunate situations. An RPV recorded by the staff would be huge in making sure the decision is unquestionable.
This kind of thing has been planned for a while. Exactly how to deal with failure, account actions and even things like gump design are yet to be completely figured out.
But it’s coming up soon. So any conversation about this is useful and can shape what will be done.
A different buddy of mine that i know in real life was an old gm for some other shard, was ‘fired’ as staff, and knew enough about resource macroing detection that he was able to resource macro and avoid detection, just by setting his macro to space macroing out more and some other things I cant quite remember.
there will need to be a lot of counselors with only the ability to .jail and teleport to players, scripts stop some but not all if someone is determined enough to exploit a system.
perhaps some sort of reward system for counselors who jail the most proven resource macroers.
Like with most issues we’re often thinking of the stick and not the carrot. I think some ideas that encourage an appropriate type of play would be better..
For instance you could make some mining and logging nodes yield higher amounts of ore and wood, but have them be patrolled by mobs or NPCs that attack anyone trying to steal from their forest or mine.
Granted the incentive to macro resource gathering on some hidden corner of the map is going to be still high, as the chances of being caught are low. I guess the only way around this would be enforcement via staff.
Guarded nodes are a great idea.
Flesh it out.
I’m concerned that guarded nodes suffer some of the same problems as dynamic nodes.
How do the guarded nodes work? If you’re adding higher top end resource amounts to the nodes, do you have to lower the amount of resources gathered from regular areas in the game for fear of flooding the world with resources?
What is the effect on new players if you do that – what’s the effect if you don’t?
What’s the goal? Incentivizing game play over macroing -> creating “resource hunter” characters instead of just mules?
Bonuses here would be increased time played on a gathering character, increased attachment to the character, increased ability to defend ones self from PKs on this gathering character. What else?
How is balance achieved? Balance the nodes and their prevalence in the world with their difficulty and against the amount of time it takes to roll up one of these new gatherer-type characters.
Now what are the ultimate effects? Are the resources of the world dominated by a certain type of player/character? What kind? Do the monsters and the resource camping keep new players and competition out? Is this a good thing – does it create resource wars? Would that require small amounts of very profitable resource nodes? Do you value exploration and time invested created by making the nodes dynamic somehow, or the competition over nodes that’d be created by making them static in the world. Do you push new or inexperienced players out of the resource gathering game – something newer players have always been able to rely on to get on their feet in UO.
So on and so forth.
Interesting idea.
Thats a mouthful and it’s nice to see that you’re putting that much thought into the changes you’re making to the server.
I’ll admit I didn’t put that much thought into the guarded nodes, was just hoping to give some incentive to play time in crafting as you are in combat related skills – which is I think the end goal we’ve been talking about here.
To be honest the mini game to prevent macroing on nodes is probably the best idea with the least impact on the rest of the game. Still, it would have to be complex enough not to be able to be scripted.
When I have some time maybe I’ll think up some answers to your fleshed out guarded node reply.
What about redoing the system for how resources nodes are calculated. Diminishing returns per account on harvesting might stop someone from farming all day. At a certain point you simply will stop getting ore.
That’s a very interesting thought as well.
Some people do nothing but collect resources. Would it be fair to punish the people who do it legitimately?
Resource nodes could have a chance to spawn a mob when gathering. So on each successful mining action theres a chance a mob would spawn and instantly agro you. These mobs could have loot tables like Ore or Shovels.
Top 10 Canadian Searches in 2009:
1. NHL 6. Megan Fox
2. RuneScape 7. American Idol
3. UFC 8. NASCAR
4. WWE 9. NBA
5. Michael Jackson 10. Susan Boyle
RUNESCAPE NUMBER TWO. WJAT THE FUCK.
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2689938/
the scroll still loses
why the fuck are canadians searching for nascar?
I guess runescape is a bit more disturbing.
You’d be very surprised how much of Canada is filled with hicks. Drive a mile out of town in any direction and it’s Nascar caps, bayous and trailer parks. Just imagine Louisiana with snow 5 months out of the year. Accent equally stupid. About as much mangled French.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/meet-the-world-s-top-world-of-warcraft-player/1377953
“We could hazard a few guesses, though. At 14.5 quests per day, it would take about 414 days to reach Little Gray’s 6,000 quest mark. Speaking conservatively, a veteran Warcarft player can pretty handily knock out three quests in an hour, which would mean about five hours a day for Little Gray.
But that’s just for quests. You do a LOT more than that in Warcraft, such as going on raids, engaging in player vs. player combat, and tinkering with your abilities and gear. It wouldn’t be even remotely surprising to find out that Little Gray has spent in upwards of ten hours a day playing the game.”
Right. Every achievement in the game? Try 16+ hours a day.
Here’s the problem with discouraging macroing and making skill gain faster while playing — this isn’t the current generation of players that are going to be coming to IPY.
I’m 29 years old now, a far cry from my years when I was 15 or 16 playing UO with endless amounts of time, with a wife and baby to tend to as well. I only have an hour or two (max) every few days to play. The rest of the time? I’ll be macroing.
Let’s be honest — if this were a mass market game that was going to draw people in by the thousands (and hell, I’d love that!) then you’d have an audience who could sit and play and gain skills naturally. Unfortunately however, the simple reality is that as the generation that’s going to be playing — we all don’t have time. After hearing about the rebirth of IPY, my guild and I have started on a freeshard with the hopes to rekindle our teamwork (a slow process). We only play an hour or two every few days, but we macro most of the time.
The idea for us, is no longer ‘the climb’. We’ve done it. We’ve explored UO and found every nook and cranny there is. We are in it to PvP and have fun. IPY is coming back as a rebirth to proper guild warfare and skill-full PvP. It’s not coming back to reinvent the game in a new way. Sure, there will be innovative ideas I’m sure, and it will be different from another freeshard in many ways, but in the end, it’s the UO PvP we all crave and are coming for.
You make it take longer, powergamers and unemployed will fire full speed ahead of everybody else leaving a vacuum until others catch up. And eventually, they will — and everybody will be sitting pretty and have their ‘endgame’ characters complete.
The thing to spend the time on, in my opinion, is what keeps PvP from getting STALE. That’s not an easy road to trek, but that’s the thing I would try to perfect before any other.
Thanks, we are all looking forward to the server.
I gotta say I disagree with nearly your entire post. While your intentions are admirable and everybody has a right to enjoy the things that make them happy in UO, it’s not just about the PvP. It’s DEFINITELY not about guild warfare [this is not a tactical game bro, the glass ceiling for guild dynamics are extremely shallow and archaic by modern standards] and the rearing of Macroing’s ugly head must be downplayed in order to prevent the stale gameplay you worry about; we all worry about the game being stale.
I truly find it remarkable that some people would rather manipulate the arrow of time rather than immerse themselves in the development of a character, which is [or at least should be] pertinent in unlocking the nuances of mastery, in addition to being an enjoyable experience in a playing field that is level and legitimate. There is nothing wrong with developing a char, even if you have done so in another setting or world or game… Simply put – the more time you put in, the more intrinsic value and more you get out of it. EVEN in a world of macroing this holds true – consider how most would acknowledge that a 7x on OSI would mean more than a 7x on IPY; or a 7x on SP meaning more than a 7x on Great Lakes.
I understand you’re exciting to play a meaningful server again and rekindle your passion for this game. I understand you have “grown up and have a life” yada yada yada. I understand your correct assumption that powergamers have a chance to increase the distance between them and the non-PGers in a situation where more time is needed in char dev. But it doesn’t guarantee the PGers will cap first, and it certainly doesn’t mean they will be the last.
If the idea for you isn’t the climb, then what it is? Playing king of the hill? Death matching? Your intentions in playing surely differ wildly than others, and the simple fact is that Death matching will still exist in it’s true form even if the path to that state is longer or drawn out. Leaderboards and speed of development and mastering nuances is something that other people enjoy, and it takes nothing away from the end game of UO – it simply puts end game in higher regard.
Three things for hercules here:
- I understand what you mean when you speak about my target audience. However, they are no longer my only target audience. I catered to them directly last time and let everyone else to fend for themselves in a world completely dedicated to the PvP player. This did not work out in the long term. Roleplayers and PvMers and socializers and so on existed in spite of it only.
My aim has changed to a degree and I want to provide a more balanced world that’ll be long-term viable and not cave in on itself under the weight of my own shortsightedness and stupidity.
- That you want to macro is fine. At the moment I have no intention of stopping you. You just won’t have NO reason to play the game INSTEAD of macroing. A good macroer won’t simply have all of the advantages in creating characters. A powergamer willing to play the game will do it faster than you – and a new player will have at least some chance to catch up.
But if you have four hours a week to play the game, no, you won’t have more than everyone else faster than everyone else because macroing is the be all and end all of the game aside from PvPing. However, you’ll still be able to macro – it’ll just be a less efficient process than playing the game. Isn’t that fair?
- PvP will not be stale if you choose to play with the fresh fruit. Sometimes it’ll be sweet and sometimes it’ll be sour – but it’ll be there to eat.
I’m not saying to abandon the other gameplay styles in pursuit of only supporting PvP players. I’m just saying that the trivialities of retention and long term server growth are formulated more by the motivation of PvP than probably anything else. I mean, do you think people would play IPY if PvP sucked donkey balls? It’s just a reminder to keep that as a fore in your thought process, though not necessarily to devote all your resources to it.
Thanks for the info on macroing — I had an incorrect assumption about it and introducing new ways to actually get engaged with content is a good thing.
PvP does get stale over time. Either events, addons, fluff, etc that add into PvP without imbalancing it (ie, special hits are a no-no like para blow or whatever, else I’d just play Hybrid) will definitely make the game more fun.
In many sense, UO was and probably continues to be in a different form, an amazing graphical chat that allowed you to be competitive with friends. We would group together, become friends, and challenge ourselves. It’s how WOW has evolved too. Right now, I’m interested to see how it pans out, but so long as those special hits stay out, the old IPY style PvP remains, I think I’ll be there to enjoy it with you whichever way you decide to implement the surroundings.
I should add — knowing your target audience and WHY they are coming is important to actually get people signed on to even PLAY the server. I have nostalgia for IPY and will play it again when it’s out.
You can attract the ‘other’ types of gamers after you’ve launched, but you can’t get a core of people who never played and give them the fluff features and expect them to build the server.
Gotta go with the old relics like me first :) So you will cater to us! :p
I understand where you’re coming from and I feel ya – but I’m in the same “old relic” boat you are in… and I personally think it’s time for a change, assuming they [the changes] are subtle and innovative at the same time.
CAPTCHA: Don’t know how possible it is, but an idea would be for the server to start recording the player when his captcha menu comes up. Have him do a series of tasks, like ‘face direction’ ‘walk to steps’. etc etc, then review everything later.
Even if you don’t do it that way, just make the puzzles idiot proof. Don’t even make it a puzzle. List 10 items, and tell them to click a certain one. If they fail, give them another chance. 3 fails, mark their account. I’m sure the tests could be simple enough to where nobody would possibly believe that an actively playing human could have screwed them up.
Slow skill gain and character development: BLEH. God I never want to macro, or build a character again, done it enough. But there’s no way I would promote fast skill gain. Who cares what I think? I’ve had my fun. I’ve done my time. Keep it slow and branch out to the young crowd. Let them see exactly what ALL the fuss is about with this 15 year old (or how ever old it is) relic of a legend. Who am I or any of you to spoil their potential fun?
yer all gonna play regardless, fuck yer verbosity.
you got a kid,
great!
i have drinking problem.
you got a job,
great!
i got two.
you got an idea,
great!
we’re fucking idiots.
just launch this motherfucker.
ill fucking chase you into the flames in cove entrance.
Who the hell farms in Covetous, rofalafal
newbs trying to get skill scrolls.
read this thread,
gg tho buttercup.
I still think it’s comical that all these soothsayer types post these long-winded interpretations of “their” UO.
No one gives a fuck.
You still fucking suck.
My life is as fraught with hardship, as is yours.
Yet you think the “UO” gods should give you an infinitesimal hand-job.
Free paper towels aside, from the fucking wise, THERE IS NO FUCKING CONFLUENCE IN THE STREAM OF MEDIOCRITY.
as posted earlier in the week, RUNE SCAPE, is the second most popular search term in Canada (via fucking Yahoo.)
So why do you imbeciles dwell on the inevitable fact that you straight up fucking suck at fostering a community?
And you are?
A little off-topic, but I’d like some input on how people feel about some of the following ideas:
Removing the current criminal system and introducing a new one that is more modern day. This would involve some sort of witness engine that allows for innocent players to hold criminals accountable. Part of the system would allow for players with Forensic Evaluation to ‘inspect’ a crime scene (using it on a corpse for example). A criminal who is caught (perhaps by being knocked out) will be sent to a new type of jail. They would be offered to pay a fine (gold sink), or serve a short amount of time in jail. In order to make it fun for everybody Jail would be changed to be more of a mini-game than a punishment. That way, everyone wins. This means that crimes would have to be committed much like real life, with care.
Town government – instead of the current ruleset, each town would be at the start of the server unguarded and unoccupied. Each town would be controllable by any player willing to run for the position. Instead of guards that insta-whack, guards will be more like elite NPC mobs. Guards will have to be paid for by the town. This could create very interesting situations… PvP guilds could raid towns, or even if political enough… control them. Player built towns would be possible too.
Maybe Az will have some topics about it later but for those interested feel free to reply. I’m interested in what others think.
Lol gr1mey.. rage more.
sgorman, interesting idea, and it’s cool that you’ve thought of something different and new, however, I don’t think there needs to be further controls in place to deter people from deviance. The more you do that, the more you promote blue pvmers running rampant and speeding up economic inflation and ruining balance. They need to be kept in check. The in place system is actually pretty good at doing that imo.
You are overlooking that law biding citizens would have to pay town taxes and upkeep in order to keep guards and vendors around.
I am not trying to troll here, but I think that enhanced dungeon progression is pointless unless you make changes.
All you are doing is providing bait for the reds. The blues come in to get the advanced skill gain, then the reds come in to prey on the blues. This will happen right from the start as well, don’t kid yourself. All this promotes is massive zerging again, which was the downfall of IPY PvP the first time around. The biggest red guilds will control the dungeons and the solos, blues, and small mans will be forced out due to sheer numbers alone. Especially in the early stages of character building, numbers are important.
I see two solutions to this.
1) You make some incentive for there to be anti pk’s. I have no idea what this would be but the only way the dungeons will work as intended is if there is a count weight to the numerous reds.
2) You put in stat loss. You can bet that people with adept skills are not going to be in a hurry to go red simply because if they die, they have to start all over again. Even in the later end game stages, a real PK will PK through anything, but reds will chicken out and stay blue. So now you will have an atmosphere similar to how old UO was.
This happened on IPY, off the start the server was ruined by PK guilds controlling the main dungeons, and as such the main resources. It wasn’t really until a few PK guilds decided to go anti that the shard actually picked up and the fighting intensified. I doubt that many guilds on IPY will be interested in the Anti-PK role. If you want to promote order/chaos wars and guild wars in general, implement stat loss.
Fix for that, this happened on SP (Siege Perilous) that is supposed to say, not IPY.
Good reply Bc.
This is pure speculation and Azaroth feel free to shut me down but I suspect there will be statloss on IPY. Azaroth seems to be showing an interest in not allowing reds to do exactly what you described on IPY, and what other way is there than statloss? The answer is no other way, sir.
Even if there were no statloss I’d say the skill scrolls were still a good idea, and yes, they’d probably provide more victims for the peekays.
Stat loss? No macroing?
Maybe we should be renaming In Por Ylem to something like In Mani or Kal In Ex.
Badum-bum ching.
There is a reason why they added Trammel, and why no game has done what UO did.
“There is a reason why they added Trammel, and why no game has done what UO did.”
That’s an interesting combination of statements. Trammel certainly had nothing to do with UO having done something that no game ever did, that’s for sure. :()
Actually, I’d say it did. :)
I suppose UO did do something extra horrible to itself. Which may or may not be something no other game did, I wouldn’t know because I haven’t played any other mmorpg. Starcraft is about as far as I’ve reached.
“Azaroth seems to be showing an interest in not allowing reds to do exactly what you described on IPY, and what other way is there than statloss? The answer is no other way, sir.”
“I wouldn’t know because I haven’t played any other mmorpg.”
I just wanted to poke holes in your argument cuz that is hella hella hella hella funny. Not that you’re wrong, or that I’m trying to be a dick [ok maybe a tiny lil bit], thats just one funny ass double-whammy quote.
I don’t get it, maybe I will later. I don’t see how me not playing another mmorpg changes the fact that nothing other than statloss has ever deterred pks in uo. wtfux
That’s why I think it’s important to start at ground zero and have the player-base choose the destiny of the shard. I also think a 1 account/1 character rule would be very interesting for IPY 2.0. Enforcing it might be a bit difficult but there are ways.
Fuck half the crap suggested around here would have been just ridiculed off the original IPY’s boards. LEt’s have statloss! Let’s have only one character each! Macroing and power gaming should be made illegal! We need more jails, more rules!
Let’s also get rid of precasting. In fact, who doesn’t like special hits for melee weapons, we need those too.
The more bullshit that gets thrown around here, the more likely that the original IPY’s population will be alienated. Right now I’m torn between resubbing to DF and waiting for IPY2. Let’s not make the decision too easy for me.
“Right now I’m torn between resubbing to DF and waiting for IPY2. Let’s not make the decision too easy for me”
But with DF you get the whole one character, PvM boosted skill gain, no pre-casting, and special melee weapons anyways. All tied into a shitty engine with bad controls for only $15 a month.
You complain about all these things, yet when the same shit is offered in a different media (paid too) you would accept it. Infact I bet you represent the majority of ‘oldschool’ UO players who can only play the game the way that they think it should be played.
For the record, I’m just suggesting things, but people need to stop thinking that IPY 2 is going to be a clone of IPY 1. It is going to be innovative, a new attempt at Ultima Online. This is apparent in the way Azaroth is speaking of it.
I’d imagine that the ruleset won’t reflect a certain period or even be an attempt to mix certain periods. It will contain it’s own ruleset based on what works or what could work.
What people have to remember is that IPY 1 will be the basis for this ruleset. The problem is that Azaroth is not about to put up IPY 1, he’s going to deliver something new.
If people considered IPY 1 the rebirth of UO, then IPY 2 is going to be the expansion pack. And if Az could do it his way, we’d be playing a brand new game (engine and everything).
This part of the process is called development… it can take a long time. Even if it is just Ultima Online.
Please be patient.
Also if you you guys have never read http://azaroth.org/ipyuo/ipyuo.html I suggest you do. It provides some insight to the whole 2nd attempt.
Why must some people “threaten” az with not playing his server? It’s so ridiculously childish.
Wasn’t meant to threaten Azaroth, as I actually trust his choices. I just fear he’ll succumb to the majority’s pressures and make changes that ruin the greatest PvP game of all time.
Darkfall and UO are different animals, and I would much rather PvP in UO then darkfall. The whine that’s bothering me currently however is stat loss. It leads down a road I don’t want to see IPY go. Also I’d accept it more in Darkfall cause I’ve already put in the fucking awful amount of effort it takes to build a decent character there. I would NOT do it again there and would prefer not to have to do it in UO… even if it is a new and improved UO. But then, I can’t have the server exactly how I want it….
… I can however say anything that discourages PvP in the greatest PvP game ever is a bad idea.
Statloss only applies to the murderous PK, not to the order/chaos wars. PvP is waaaaay different from PKing, and people keep forgetting this. PKing is a form of grief, but since UO is a world where anything can happen it needs to be dealt with by enforcing a punishment for players who go down that route.
I think a big thing would be to bring back the notoriety system. Any thoughts on that?
People need to really see the details of mechanics and how they apply before judging them.
This is correct, I am glad you this pointed out. I am a gamer, I like to PvP, but when I play UO, I prefer PKing to field PvP and dueling, even though I am l33t h4x at all combat aspects in the game. It’s a different animal and it is the true prey / predator dynamic that makes the game unique in regards to risk vs reward and it’s viable environment [everywhere, even 'guard zones'].
THIS is what sets UO apart from other MMOs, not Trammel or “the best PvP” it’s all about the many different forms of griefing, with the most stark and hair-raising being PKing. A cookie for bringing this up.
The notoriety system is cool, but I don’t think it ever deterred many people from pking. Becoming perma grey for committing some kind of criminal action (at least until you improve your noto status) is the best thing the notoriety system has to offer imo. As it really does brand a thief a criminal, and so on.
I wasn’t presenting it as a way to deter people but as a better way to correctly label people. Such as you the criminal actions suggestion.
Yea I like the notoriety system for that, thieves will have to kill a lot of mobs if they want to stay blue >:)
Hmm, bc’s assumption is actually quite interesting. The system certainly would seem to promote zerging, provided it were the intention of several players to go red on ridiculously unfinished characters.
Then what the result would be is that HUGE red groups would be able to monopolize dungeon spawns, push out blues, and result in the advantage due to large numbers turning into the reds developing characters faster. Then not only do they have more numbers, but also their characters are further along and they have more magic items.
I hadn’t thought about that before, and I believe he’s right.
Maybe the solution is actually as simple as saying that you have to be blue or grey in order to loot one of the scrolls or benefit from increased skill gain.
The downside to this, is that it contradicts my thought that blue pvmers would consequently not be kept in check enough. So, what you do to combat that is dynamically adjust loot tables continuously, starting with an extremely minimal drop rate for high end weapons.
The point is, before people are developed enough to have the reds keep the blues in check, and vice versa, the system can serve to do it. Reds won’t run rampant because they wouldn’t be able to develop characters. Blues wouldnt be able to inflate markets and damage economics and PvP balance because rares and drop rates would be minimal to start. It would support O/C dungeon pvp because your option for pvping would initially be blue vs blue order and chaos, so you could pvp during development but also benefit from scrolls and skill gains.
People will argue that this would be no different than just letting reds benefit as well, but oh, yes it is. Reds can attack anyone. O/C can only attack and kill opposing factions.
Unless anyone actually thinks large O/C fights in dungeons is bad, I think this is what should happen.
I think that simply implementing statloss can save the headache of trying to find a way to deter pks from doing what they do as much as they want.
Powergamed characters will still have a signif adv. over “ridiculously undev’d PK zergs”
Most good players will tell you they could handle 3 or 4 “2x” chars with only combat skills finished and magics in the adept range. Also, I think you’re underestimating the amount of viable places for farming. Also resource farming won’t be only in dungeons, so there’s that dynamic to spread out players as well as a lot of them macroing, towning, and noobin it up at the banx!
Well, take it how you will, statloss serves to prevent them from doing it as soon as they die, which promotes pking with larger numbers to ensure that doesn’t happen.
Deterring the effeciency by which they acquire their stats to begin with, well, that’s self explanatory. If they can’t develop their characters to begin with, then pking isn’t abundant, or a problem to begin with. Easy enough idea…
With people fighting for spawns and scrolls during development through the OC system, the synch dump argument is essentially moot to begin with, because no one will have acquired a character with skills capable of doing it, which would mean people would have to find new and different tactics for pvping.
This should be clear as well, because we’re all used to pvping with fully created 7X characters. I think it would be new, interesting, and pretty awesome to see large fights with tons of people who are less developed than we’re used to.
As soon as more people begin to “finish” their characters, you’ll start to see reds emerge. When that happens, you can then adjust loot tables in order to keep the developed blues interested in remaining in the dungeons. Both sides will have scaled evenly, and the OC system will already be so massive and flourishing that not a whole lot of people will abandon it just to PK. Even if some people do, then you have the desired balance.
Large, flourishing Dungeon O/C fights. Blue PvMers interested in risking going to dungeons, pks trying to keep them in check.
Pks kept in check by the huge amount of existing blue O/C players that are frequenting the dungeons.
balance without statloss. Go.
Not to say that your ideas aren’t good ones, it’s just that I think statloss is still the answer. I often hear people say that statloss encourages reds to pk in groups, true as that may be, it would seem that no statloss also encourages reds to pk in groups, because they sho do. I recall 10+ groups of pks both on IPY and Divinity, with no statloss.
I’m all for ideas other than statloss for deterring pks, it’s just that it’s been talked and talked to death with no avail.
just think about it. Constant O/C battles in every dungeon over resources required to build characters. People at all stages of development will be there, and it will exist constantly.
When everyone’s characters are done, will people stop fighting each other? probably not.
where the fuck is the IRC channel and the forum
It’s coming, pressure Az.
I could use another server/channel to idle in. Az, IRC/forums pls.
I was born to IRC!!!
see az, we want an IRC server more than anything
so fork it up
before i titty slap you
well I started a channel. irc.stratics.com #ipy – feel free to join.
On that like a fat kid on cake.
its not official or anything just for discussion.
Macroing
1. Skill gain is at a normal speed when hitting mobs or NPCs.
2. No skill gain from hitting other players. Melee and Magic included.
3. Training dummies allow skill gain to 100, just very slowly. These dummies can be crafted by players and placed inside a player’s house. These dummies will allow both Melee & Magic gain when hit (slow).
4. No skill gain in resist from other players hitting you. (This will need to be done out in the world) (no resist parties)
Resource Gathering
1. When harvesting a node there is a chance a Mob will spawn with aggression towards you. These mobs can have loot tables of Ore (if you’re mining) and wood (if you’re chopping). We can also include shovels and hatchets on them.
2. No resource gathering in guarded areas.
Dungeon Scrolls
1. Maybe instead of these scrolls there can be a chance to have a “critical skill gain” when combating certain monsters. You could also limit where these special monsters are if needed.
2. The “critical skill gain” can also work when certain monsters cast magic on you and you resist, causing a critical skill gain on your resist.
Crafting and Crafting Quests
1. The crafting quests could reward you in a skill bump instead of money.
2. These quests could require a bit of adventure. Maybe you need to retrieve a special resource (quest only) to make a special item which has no use to a normal player, but is just a quest item. The player may be required to travel a long ways across the world to retrieve the items for the quest. I think this could make crafting more interesting and less of a grind. I would probably rather do the quests then mine for 10 hours for 5 points in blacksmithing.
Really good ideas.
just bring back power hour
I agree with Az that UO needs a new makeover with the shell of the game still intact. I’m just catching up on all the reading and I have some rough ideas as well that I would like to bounce off people.
REDS/PK’s:
Is stat loss really the solution? I don’t believe so. What about temporary stat loss on death? (24 hrs maybe?) What about creating a new color (black) for the most evil (most kills) players on the shard? When these players would die then permanent stiff stat loss would take place. Their heads could be turned in for a big bounty or a unique item. Stat loss would occur when the head was turned in.
ECONOMY:
This is a CRUCIAL part to the success of the shard. A solid economy would add legitimacy to the shard by removing the “disposable” feeling most player-run shards have. people have the most fun in UO when they are emotionally invested into the game, and getting to that point means obtaining items the players value (be it a cache of consumables, magic weapons, houses, rares, gold, etc.)
I have a bunch of really rough ideas thrown together. more to come on this..
MAGICAL ITEMS:
I think you should do away completely with the magical item system UO has and implement a Diablo system with magical and unique items. These items would not only give special bonuses but also look different than other items. Make some items really rare like 1 or 2 per shard and so on.
OTHER IDEAS:
What about removing the meditation skill? A slow int gain would bring back the use of armor and make spell selection and timing crucial to pvp. It would give melee a huge boost as well. Going without armor could make int gain faster by 60% or so
- Parrying magical attacks
I’m really excited to see this if it comes together..
Thoughts?
I’m not going to bash on your ideas, but some of them are kind of whack, though I do like the BLACK TITLE or whatever to chars with high amounts of kills, but as far as implenenting a diablo 2 type weapon system? Come on. I personally wouldn’t want anything to look different than it should, cause then it wouldn’t really be UO. I’m sure most of us don’t want to play a UO/D2 combination, we just want UO.
And being able to parry magical attacks is like suggesting that if you have a wand equipped, you should be able to conduct someones energy bolt back at them
Cmon the game is like 15 years old.. It needs something different..
Meditation was an added skill if anyone can remember that far back…
I have a huge list of proposed combat changes that aren’t unrealistic for UO and don’t add anything fancy. They need to be tested though. Item based pvp system is dumb, and it is the reason UO sucked when AoS came out.
old thread but i have an idea for crafting.
I think boats and houses should be craftable, and higher level boats and houses should only be available from player crafters.
In fact really large houses like towers and keeps could only be made by groups of GM crafters working together.
I had an idea for crafter guilds, which would be like a regular guild stone, but only chars with GM craft skills could join these guilds. They would not be able to war other guilds or go order/chaos. These guild stones would be useganise cooperative crafting of large items and bulk order deed to ords. BODs would be dragged onto the stone and then any member of the guild would be free to add items to the BOD.
The larger types of houses would only be able to be built by crafters guilds with 5 or more members (for example), and jobs could be completed collectively by dropping commodity deeds onto the guild stone. Eg, if a guild wanted to build a tower, the guildmaster would use the guildstone gump to start this job, and then the guild members could contribute resources by dragging deeds onto the stone (Large houses might take thousands of logs and ingots) When the house was completed then the deed would be available for sale from the guild stone as with player vendors, and once somebody buys the deed then everyone who contributed resources get their share of the gold. Price could be set by the guild master or auctions could be run via the stone.
Effectively this would set up player run companies that could compete with each other and make it so crafters have to work together.
I think that’s an awesome idea. ;)
I saw some horrible ideas that stand out among the good ideas. My suggestion is simple and easy with little change.
1. Keep everything the same as far as rules go, just tweak it a little
2. Change the dungeon loot to give less, and outside stuff to give more. Not but a whole lot, but this gives people more of a chance to stay away from pk hotspots and still make some cash with what monsters that don’t hang in those areas.
3. Slow magic drops.
4. Don’t underestimate skills like tracking and FE. They are good antipk and antitheif tools. In towns and in dungeons.
5. make a GM smith useful again. I remember when a guild was nothing until they had their own GM smith. Seeing massive magic armor and weapons kinda screws with this tradeskill.
6. Keep house spots monitored. I could tell you how many times a house that gets placed where it should, just flat out ruins the play. If you can open the bank box from your house, then something isnt right.
7. Keep boats out of the britain bank moat. That just looks like ass.
8. slow down small snakes, and reduce their number through out the normal parts. You might want to look into nixing snakes a lot. They give shit loot, always poison, fast, and spawn way too damn much.
9. Keep a wandering healer at every dungeon entrance and at britain grave yard.
10. Give special gifts to those who report bugs and exploits too. Nothing more annoying than seeing the only rare items on top PVPers.This would send a message that tradeskill is just as important as pvping. Raise the moral for the underdog work horse.
11. keep old menu GUIs.
12. Leave horses out of game. This was soo much better.
13. No instant death for being guard wacked. I remember sometimes it took 2 quick wacks, but this was because the guards attacked you, rather then is being a /death action. This time is crucial for thiefs or body looting. It’s part of the game.
14. when lumberjacking, and mining, let the skill animation and timer kick in. I believe last osi, it was on a one chop, one swing result. Let the axe swing a few times before you get wood. It takes the grind feeling out more.
15, leave MIB in, take nets out. Those nets were a huge disappointment.
16. Dont make treasure hunting skills like lockpicking, trap remove, and cartography impossible to GM. I remember last IPY, i had a level 5 map that was worthless because it was impossible to GM Cartography, or next to it. Make the monsters spawn more, and increase the gold loot, but fuck all the magic items. OR just making the mobs stronger, it will turn it into a guild event, rather than a run and grab solo thing.
17. Make houses more than just storage units. Keep items that make a house an in game house. Not just a room with a locked down key on the porch, and items blocking possible stealth looters.
18. Let the npcs pick the trash up on britain ground. Usually someone overloaded with goodies drops their junk and the noobs pick it up and bank it. It’s recycling junk in this game. When I played osi, i remember the dreadful event of valuable items getting picked up by the guards or shop npcs.
19. DONT BLESS HOUSE DEEDS. Thesecondage shard has blessed house deeds. How carebearish. If you want something in this game, there should be some kind of a struggle to get it. Holding on to a deed in your bag until you find a place to put it, is over the line imo.
20 Make Karma and Fame count. It’s such an irking sight to see 50% of the population with a lord/lady title.
21. Make all town NPCs mortal, but very tough. Wandering healers should have high hit points. That’s just accurate to osi.
22. Rare colored sandels seem to be just a big hype as PVPing. In old school OSI, the only ones that spawned colored sandels was Artist npcs, and shop vendors. I say make it a challenge for those sandels.
23. Eliminate colored armor. It was post T2A, and its just as lame as ridable llamas. Now a days the only color that people like is gold or shadow. Even a valorite suit of armor is worthless now.
24. Remove gate travel query’s. This is just a safe guard for macroers from the begining. Nobody walks into a gate on accident anymore. But this is the best way to get rid of someone who’s rail mining.
25. Don’t over do server events. Once a week is great. Once a day kinda gets old. Make them worth marking down.
That’s its until I can think of some more.